"endless" reinforcements

[Molve]

I suspect the devs feel this is so obvious it does not have to be said, but I need to ask:

• Can I set up reinforcements to "repeat" turn after turn?
• Can more units be generated during a scenario than what is placed in the scenario file? Adding units to the map without placing each and every one manually beforehand?
• Can I script the purchase of specific new units?

I guess all of the above asks the same question but in different ways. Hopefully that means you understand what I am asking about...

I know I can hand out more prestige, but I am not satisfied with how the AI is using it. In scenarios where the AI plays the attacker, it isn't so bad (it generally buys the strongest tank, unless a victory hex is threatened). But in scenarios where the AI plays the defender (which is to say "almost always") it spams the cheapest tank or tankette over and over again, which is a complete waste of prestige (and looks really bad). The AI can use prestige to repair existing units, but its limits on core units should be set to prevent it from purchasing any new ones, IMHO.

I would like to designate a "supply center hex" and as long as it is in AI hands, give it a steady stream of balanced units with the AI orders I choose. Such as "on even turns, you get this tank; on odd turns, you get an infantry and an artillery". That would need three preplaced units, which would then be repeated throughout the scenario (and give the player a reason to cut off the supply ASAP)

But I don't want to fill up the map with these units, as I would have to do if all reinforcements must be "purchased already when designing the scenario": these units appear on turn 1, those on turn 2 and so on for all thirty turns (it can easily become 30, 60 or even a hundred units...)

Not only will half of this number never actually see any use assuming the player conquers the designated hex halfway through the scenario, but 60 hexes are a lot - you'd need to enlarge the playing area just to store them away from the action!

[BiteNibbleChomp]

I don't think you can add endless reinforcements as a single event, however, it is possible to make say, the number of turns in the game of a certain unit to come one each turn by:

- set a Zone to be one hex, where all the reinforcements will come.
- put 30 (example) of that unit on the map (anywhere)
- set each unit to appear in ZONE 1 (or whichever you are using).
- Set the trigger so that one unit appears turn 2, one on T3, one on 4 and so on...
- Add a message telling the side who gets the unit to keep such hex clear so that more units can come

- BNC

[Molve]

- put 30 (example) of that unit on the map (anywhere)

Yeah, this is it. I simply feel it would have been more elegant to not have to waste thirty hexes of map space just to "store" the incoming units before they're needed.

After all, it is an electronic game - we do not need to store all counters in the box before they're used. It would be elegant if new units could be created from thin air (by scripts).

Just like, you know, purchasing new units already work (but crucially with the control taken away from the defending AI; that is, not by handing over prestige and allowing the AI to choose what to buy)

Thanks,
M

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Who said "game hexes"? You can just put some (or most) of those units in the hexes around the edge of the map where the WHOLE HEX is hidden by the rectangular "red border" around the near-edge of the map. This will save some game hexes for other stuff.

- BNC

[Molve]

What I am saying is that I find it inelegant to have to put the "counters" into the game box (anywhere) beforehand, when the game is otherwise perfectly capable of generating units on the spot (the purchase screen).

Best regards

[Razz1]

You can not script specific units to be purchased.

However, you can set up conditions, like I have done in map my multiplayer maps and in the Danzig campaign.

Under these conditions you can have units appear. This is the same as scripting the AI to buy a specific unit.

The only way to get the AI to buy good units and use them to attack, is to surround each victory hex with a unit. Then the AI will buy a good unit and move one of those units surrounding the VH to move out and be used for attack. Of course, the AI must have allot of prestige. I can't remember if the the other flag hexes need the same criteria, but I think they do.

Since then we have added the attack function, which you can assign to the AI which helps allot. However the AI still likes to surround the flag cities.

[Molve]

However, you can set up conditions, like I have done in map my multiplayer maps and in the Danzig campaign.

Under these conditions you can have units appear. This is the same as scripting the AI to buy a specific unit.

I am not sure what you are referring to...?

[Razz1]

Use a condition for the German player. X number of fighter on Y turn add what ever unit you think the AI should have at that point in time. For example another AI Fighter.

[Molve]

Use a condition for the German player. X number of fighter on Y turn add what ever unit you think the AI should have at that point in time. For example another AI Fighter.

I still don't know what you mean by "condition".

Perhaps it would be helpful for me to add that I am experienced with scenario editing - I am well aware that I can add units in the editor that I specify a trigger for - perhaps this is what you mean by "condition" (such as the unit not appearing until a certain turn or when a hex is taken etc)?

But this is what I find inelegant: each reinforcement unit must be preplaced on the map (potentially filling up great swathes of map space in the editor), even though units you (or the AI) purchases through the $ button do not!

I am not saying this is a crippling bug. Most if not all scenarios are still possible to construct - what I am saying is that I find it inelegant to have to "put all the playing pieces into the box already at manufacture" like this was a physical game...

I would like to see the ability to script specific unit purchases (units coming into the game out of nowhere) added to the scenario editor, that's all!

[BiteNibbleChomp]

If this was a board game, like you suggested, then it would need to have all the pieces in it. You don't purchase a game of chess and then only have the King and Queen given to you, and then you have to go and buy the other pieces separately

- BNC

[Molve]

If this was a board game, like you suggested, then it would need to have all the pieces in it. You don't purchase a game of chess and then only have the King and Queen given to you, and then you have to go and buy the other pieces separately

- BNC

My analogy with physical board games is: if PC was a real game, then obviously all the little tanks and infantrymen would have to be packaged with the box.

But PC is an electronic game, where more units can be purchased and placed on the map at any time, so why do I still need to "package" each and every single reinforcing unit at the time when I design a scenario?

What would be truly elegant would be to be able to say "this Panzer III here, it should appear in Zone 9 on turns 9, 11, 13..." and so on. Without having to duplicate the unit, taking up three (or thirty) hexes on the map. In effect, copying units onto the battlefield, in pretty much the same way as when I buy a pair (or a dozen) Panzers using the purchase screen

[Molve]

If you have the time, do use the editor to peek into the MP scenario called "Desert Squadrons".

It "beautifully" illustrates my point.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

The devs must have either not thought of it in the first place or decided to not bother. The problem (As I see it anyway) is that you would need multiple triggers, or have a "clone" trigger that activates on Turns x, y and z. It may be possible to add such a feature by modding a whole bunch of the files, but I think it would just be easier to add extra units. An idea: use the unused hexes - as I have marked, for your reinforcement units.

df.JPG (35.44 KiB) Viewed 4021 times

The points with the red X on them can be used for extra units, as there is no way to access them on the map. Yellow Spotted hexes could be used as well, but the red ones are better.

- BNC (Hope this helps!)

[Molve]

BNC, you're misunderstanding me. I already know all about how to use the editor and I understand perfectly well why this feature hasn't been added (=any regular scenario won't feature more reinforcements than you can handle the "inelegant" way).

I just want to voice my opinion that the solution offered feels inelegant, or as I said in my original post (emphasis added):

I don't want to fill up the map with these units

It's for special-purpose scenarios such as "Desert Squadrons" a more... let's call it programmable... way of doing things would have been so much sleeker!

Imagine if you could add a bunch of units, and then in a script just say "spawn a copy of the unit(s) in Zone 11" and that would make those units appear out of thin air. Then you could repeat this command as many times as you wanted, and each time a new copy of the unit(s) would be added to the map.

A scenario such as "Desert Squadrons" could then be implemented with just one set of each squadron and just one set of scripts. "If unit selector is on the infantry hex, then spawn a copy of the infantry squad" and you'd simply set the script to repeat throughout the scenario (with a skip value of one, so it would only trigger on even turns, just like how the scenario works today).

Infinitely more elegant in my opinion!

[McGuba]

I perfectly understand you point, lol

Indeed, it would be much more "elegant" if there was a scripting option like this in the editor, but currently there is not. Uncontrollable AI purchases are still one of the weakest points of PzC, and it has been like this since good old Panzer General. So the devs of PzC came up with this scripting option, that you can add units appearing at any time or condition as if they were purchased by the AI. It is an acceptable solution (better than nothing), but, as you put it very precisely, not very "elegant". Still, this is a huge step forward since the classic PG, where you could only place units appearing in the first turn, and then do nothing, but hope for the AI to buy the "appropriate" units later. More often than not it failed to do so.

So, now, if we want to have the same option that you described in the editor, you (we) have to write to the devs and ask them to implement it in a next patch. I think it is possible as they have already added several new scripting options since the release of v1.0.