Tactics against Illyrians question?

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:44 am

Whilst I was playing my game on Wednesday my friends were playing another FoG game next to me. Selucids V Illytians. The Illyrians were almost 100% MF warriors. They had a steep hill in the middle of the board they hid on and would not come down. The Selucid Pike would be crazy to go after them. What could he have done??

My personal suggestion is perhaps some missile troops, set them up at a couple of angles around the hill to get a good number firing and just shoot the C%^& out of him but not sure that would have worked??

Andy

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:23 am

miffedofreading wrote:Whilst I was playing my game on Wednesday my friends were playing another FoG game next to me. Selucids V Illytians. The Illyrians were almost 100% MF warriors. They had a steep hill in the middle of the board they hid on and would not come down. The Selucid Pike would be crazy to go after them. What could he have done??

My personal suggestion is perhaps some missile troops, set them up at a couple of angles around the hill to get a good number firing and just shoot the C%^& out of him but not sure that would have worked??

Andy

Your thoughts sound reasonable. Protected foot are quite vulnerable to shooting.

There presumably were areas where there was no hill, if so the Seleucid mounted could opperate there and take the Illyrian camp and perhaps pick off a BG or two that way=.

It is certainly a battle the Seleucids can't lose and with some missile foot they can win it even if it is a slow win.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:57 am

It is also traditional to point out the spineless nature of the one hiding, question his parentage and suggest a significant lack of testicular fortitude

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:00 pm

The player concerned is quite "defensive" by nature.

To be fair it would not have been a good idea to come off the hills and face pike 1:1 would it?

I believe the battle ended with a draw and both sides losing one battle group.

I helped out a couple of times, it did not look like a very action packed game, a bit too much hide and seek for me.

On the other hand what could the Illyrian have done to make better use of his troops other than just hiding? Is there a tactic that works for large number of protected MF offensive spearmen, I am sure he would be interested in hearing your words of wisdom

Andy

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:18 pm

Ancient history is replete with examples of commanders refusing to offer battle because they perceived their army to be at a tactical disadvantage, or even because they did not think they had enough of an advantage. So such situations are in fact quite historical, and can provide some interesting challenges quite different from those posed by more aggressive leadership styles.

Cheers,
Scott

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:18 pm

Well to be fair to our unnamed friend here it isn't the worlds greatest match up, however, if you take such an army you do need to have some idea how you're going to take on common armies like Seleukid.

Terrain is obviously your friend here so you may wish to consider an army composition that has the highest initiative you can get so you have a greater chance of dictating the terrain type - your troops are relatively cheap (albeit not desperately so) so you should be able to get an IC in there for example - but bear in mind when deploying that your opponent will move first.

You will dominate terrain so you want to be using this as a way to manoeuvre BGs into positions where they may threaten flanks, etc.

You will almost certainly have to fight the enemy in good going in a number of places and it may be that you just have to be prepared to lose a few BGs along the way - just bite the bullet and accept this. You can plan with this in mind and possibly catch pursuing enemy.

MF spearmen are actually OK in the open against a lot of mounted so don't be scared to get close to these.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:05 pm

The only bits of a Seleucid army that MF offensive spear are scared of are the pikes. If I was using Illyrian against them I would try to apply pressure where the pike weren't while distracting the pike with lighter troops. Once you can get a pike block into a possition where it is facing two enemy BGs in different directions it is in a world of pain.

I agree that it is not an easy matchup but I think with the right tactics the Illyrians can certainly win this one.

moj · Post by **moj** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:10 pm

ars_belli wrote:Ancient history is replete with examples of commanders refusing to offer battle because they perceived their army to be at a tactical disadvantage, or even because they did not think they had enough of an advantage. So such situations are in fact quite historical, and can provide some interesting challenges quite different from those posed by more aggressive leadership styles.

The winner is the army that remembered to pack the most sandwiches...

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:32 pm

Am I right in remembering that when trying to shoot up a deep formation like pikes you only count the bases in the first 3 ranks for hits per base etc?

Andy

rtaylor · Post by **rtaylor** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:04 pm

miffedofreading wrote:Am I right in remembering that when trying to shoot up a deep formation like pikes you only count the bases in the first 3 ranks for hits per base etc?

Andy

That's right. An 8-base pike block in 4 ranks counts as 6 bases, so it needs only 2 shooting hits to force a CT. But a smart Seleucid player will have LF in front of his pikes.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:30 pm

hammy wrote:
The only bits of a Seleucid army that MF offensive spear are scared of are the pikes.

It isn't that happy against any catafracts or companions though - evens PoA at impact and melee but the mounted are superior and so better able to ride any swings of luck against them. Of course there should be more Illyrians which should help

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:49 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:
hammy wrote:
The only bits of a Seleucid army that MF offensive spear are scared of are the pikes.

It isn't that happy against any catafracts or companions though - evens PoA at impact and melee but the mounted are superior and so better able to ride any swings of luck against them. Of course there should be more Illyrians which should help

Well as the cataphracts cost almost three times as many points I think I can live with being on a mere evens

Luddite · Post by **Luddite** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:39 am

I've had a few tournament games in DBM like this..

'Well, you aren't coing out of the terrain and i'm not coming in...so lets call it 5:5 and head to the bar early eh?'

Defensive players are always baffling to me...i mean we come to have a ruck and a good time right? Whats the point in corner sitting and boring everyone purple?!?

Seleukos gets to field a lovely army as you can pick and choose quite a variety. I think i count 34 bases with bows there...next time bring these chaps along and shower the hill with arrows!!

When he finally gets fed up of taking unanswered hits and comes off the hill....THEN the phalanx can do its business...

neilhammond · Post by **neilhammond** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:04 am

Luddite wrote:I've had a few tournament games in DBM like this..

'Well, you aren't coing out of the terrain and i'm not coming in...so lets call it 5:5 and head to the bar early eh?'

Defensive players are always baffling to me...i mean we come to have a ruck and a good time right? Whats the point in corner sitting and boring everyone purple?!?

I've had quite a few games like this, including with FOG at a comp last year. Although we agree it's a draw (for the comp results) I still tend to ask to play a friendly game (usually on the same terrain to save time). I tend to also suggest we swap sides - i.e. play with your opponents army, just for fun. At least you get an unusual game out of it rather than sitting at the bar.

Neil

shall · Post by **shall** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:59 am

Well it seems the Illyrian feels hw has no chance bt far from it....

You can win with it by using 3 things well

Terrain
Width
Timing

Even without terrain I would be willing to give it a try and figure the game is still only 60/40 in the Selecids favour but only if you are pretty canny with the Illyrians.

Here are few things to consider:

1) Offensive Spearmen are not too bad in the open vs mounted troops. You will be a POA down at impact vs most mounted. As long as you don't DISR in the open you will have a + for Sp and usually they will have a + against for Am, so evens. You have many more bases so you can soak up the damage well - they can't. So you need to pass the CTs at impact. So try having the front ones as big as possible with generals and rear support from smaller BGs behind (2 per front line one). That should give the enemy mounted a hard time. Then shield the front with some skimishers you can get a round of shooting in before they charge and you may DISR a few as well and then you should cream them. The thing is a small BG of Cv is OK while it wins - but if it loses it is usually down a base straight away. Numbers have a quality all of their own at times.....

2) While the PK will be at a + and you will be at a -1 on CTs this isn't the end for your army even if it might spell doom for those in front of the pikes. Put 2 BGs 4 wide or moe in front of the pikes, and this time don't be tempted to put rear suppor at all - lave them to it. You have a small chance of a win at impact and you are only a + down at melee so you get lucky sometimes - maybe 20% chance. Usually you will get broken over 2 or 3 bounds. Worth a geneal in there if the front is wide enough (I don't recall max Illyrian sizes) BUT you have only lost 2BGs keeping 4 BGs of pikes busy, so if you look at it in overall army terms that is not too bad if you can work the game elsewhere with your width. There is more to the game than thinking of the odds in a local area....

Terry and I might play this game and see how it goes. Could you give us the 2 order of battles?

Si

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:15 pm

Hi Si,

I do not have the orders of battles as I was only watching. The Illyrians had 600 points including 1-2 javelin skirmish unit everything else was warriors, no cavalry etc at all.

The seleucid looked fairly standard to me, quite a few pike (12-16?) some companion lancer cavalry and the usual collection of auxilliary troops, don't think there were any scythed chariots or elephants. I will ask tomorrow.

I think the big problem was the pike I think they scared the Illyrian player, though he does prefer to play defensively anyway. He was certainly totally tied to his hills and was not coming off them

I am not trying to be critical of any player, the Illyrian is a good friend of mine and a nice chap. If I had had the Illyrians I am not sure what i would have done either! That's why I asked for opinions.

I will pass on your advice to him.

Andy
PS His opponent lurkes on this forum and has probably read this thread, but I don't think he does look very often

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:15 pm

Hi Si,

I do not have the orders of battles as I was only watching. The Illyrians had 600 points including 1-2 javelin skirmish unit everything else was warriors, no cavalry etc at all.

The seleucid looked fairly standard to me, quite a few pike (12-16?) some companion lancer cavalry and the usual collection of auxilliary troops, don't think there were any scythed chariots or elephants. I will ask tomorrow.

I think the big problem was the pike I think they scared the Illyrian player, though he does prefer to play defensively anyway. He was certainly totally tied to his hills and was not coming off them

I am not trying to be critical of any player, the Illyrian is a good friend of mine and a nice chap. If I had had the Illyrians I am not sure what i would have done either! That's why I asked for opinions.

I will pass on your advice to him.

Andy
PS His opponent lurkes on this forum and has probably read this thread, but I don't think he does look very often

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:22 pm

Since the Illyrians were offensive spears - i.e. 'shock troops' the Seleucids could have lured them off the hill by using their own MF as bait. Simply walk onto the edge of the hill in and wait for the Illyrians to charge.

OK you lose a BG of MF - but potentially lure 2 BGs off the hill. You may even have time to rally your own MF before they disappear off table.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:42 pm

terrys wrote:Since the Illyrians were offensive spears - i.e. 'shock troops' the Seleucids could have lured them off the hill by using their own MF as bait. Simply walk onto the edge of the hill in and wait for the Illyrians to charge.

As the hill was steep and they were entirely in difficult going, they would not have to test.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:43 pm

Illyrians is possibly not the best army for a timid player to run.

Tactics against Illyrians question?

Tactics against Illyrians question?

Re: Tactics against Illyrians question?

Illyrians