Battle wagons CMT for simple move

[LaurenceP]

p41 says: battle wagons...must pass CMT, whether simple (or complex) move.

It can do anyway a simple move, p43 says: if fails (the CMT), can make a simple move.

So why "whether simple" on p41 ?

[bbotus]

Page 41, V2 says that artillery and battle wagons must pass a CMT to make any move. It goes on to say, "whether simple or complex". That means a battle wagon must pass a CMT to make a simple move. If it fails, it cannot move.

[LaurenceP]

..BUT on Page 43 POINTS TO NOTE ON THE CMT, the definition is: "If a battle Group or battle line Fails its CMT it can make a simple move."

There is not an exception like: except artillery and battle wagons. That's why I was asking about this inconsistency and most probably an issue for an errata.

So if text on Page 41 is determining, why?

[batesmotel]

Essentially there are no simple moves for artillery and battle wagons. Any move for them is a complex move. For succinctness the author's did not include a separate column for them in the simple/complex move chart.

Chris

[gozerius]

And don't forget that any battleline that includes BW or Art is subject to the same restriction.
Once committed to trying to move with BW or Art, the whole line either moves or doesn't.

[ravenflight]

And don't forget that any battleline that includes BW or Art is subject to the same restriction.
Once committed to trying to move with BW or Art, the whole line either moves or doesn't.

However a 'failed' CMT for a battle line including Battle Wagons & Artillery does not preclude those individual BG's that are NOT Battle Wagons or Artillery from moving as a simple move.

[gozerius]

Once the die is cast, the move is a battleline move and cannot be taken back.
"Artillery and battle wagons (or a battle line including any of these) must pass a Complex Move Test to carry out any move, whether simple or complex." (p. 41)
"Once the dice have been roll that battle group or battle line must make its move, if any, before others are moved or tested. It is not permitted to conditionally make or change a move depending on the result of a subsequent battle group's test." (p.43)
"A battle line must remain together throughout the first and second moves. It cannot be formed as a first move, then moved together as a second move.
It cannot "drop off" or "pick up" battle groups during the moves." (p.81)
So you don't get to attempt a battle line move with BW or Art and then change your battle line move if the CMT fails.

[batesmotel]

Once the battleline including the BWg or Artillery has failed to make its CMT to move, the other BGs in the line may not make a battleline move or attempt a different CMT, but each non-atillery and non-BWg BG may make a simple move.

Chris

[gozerius]

They were part of the battle line that tested. The whole battle line moves with the restrictions of the least capable troop type. No BG that attempts to move as part of a battle line with arty or BW can move after failing the battle line's CMT to move. There is no option to conditionally move should the attempt to move as a battle line fails.

[bbotus]

Page 43 says a BG or Battle Line that fails its CMT can make a simple move. While an arty or Battle Wgn that fails cannot move, there is nothing to stop the rest of the BL from making a simple move.

[batesmotel]

Page 43 says a BG or Battle Line that fails its CMT can make a simple move. While an arty or Battle Wgn that fails cannot move, there is nothing to stop the rest of the BL from making a simple move.

The question is whether BGs in the battle line may make a simple move as individual BGs or whether it is only the existing battle line as a whole may make a simple move. If the latter the battle line cannot make a simple move due to the fact that there are no simple moves for a battle line including Art or BWg. The rules do seem clear that you cannot add or remove BGs from a battle line during the turn once it moves/attempts to move so I definitely think it is illegal to move a subset of the battle line excluding the Art and BWg as a single battle line in the same turn after failing the CMT.

Chris

[ravenflight]

Page 43 says a BG or Battle Line that fails its CMT can make a simple move. While an arty or Battle Wgn that fails cannot move, there is nothing to stop the rest of the BL from making a simple move.

The question is whether BGs in the battle line may make a simple move as individual BGs or whether it is only the existing battle line as a whole may make a simple move. If the latter the battle line cannot make a simple move due to the fact that there are no simple moves for a battle line including Art or BWg. The rules do seem clear that you cannot add or remove BGs from a battle line during the turn once it moves/attempts to move so I definitely think it is illegal to move a subset of the battle line excluding the Art and BWg as a single battle line in the same turn after failing the CMT.

Chris

No, they HAVEN'T moved as a battle line. They've done nothing. They TRIED (and failed) to move as a battle line. What you've quoted is to stop people moving a battle line moving one march move, then half of the battle line moving half of another move and the rest moving all of the next. You can also not pick up a BG half way through a move and continue with a second move.

Troops that haven't moved haven't created a battle line. They wouldn't until such time as they pass the test.

[dave_r]

Page 43 states "Once the dice have been rolled, that battle group or battle line must make its move, if any, before others are moved or tested. It is not permitted to arrange to conditionally make or change a move depending on the result of a subsequent battle group's test."

Seems fairly clear if you throw the dice for a battle line then you must then move that battle line. If you fail then you will be unable to move the battle line as some of the troops contained within cannot make a move.

[ravenflight]

Seems fairly clear if you throw the dice for a battle line then you must then move that battle line. If you fail then you will be unable to move the battle line as some of the troops contained within cannot make a move.

What battle line? They haven't created a battle line. They failed to do so. They therefore are free to move as individual BG's.

In fact, that you've commented against it Dave just about proves that I'm correct.

[dave_r]

Seems fairly clear if you throw the dice for a battle line then you must then move that battle line. If you fail then you will be unable to move the battle line as some of the troops contained within cannot make a move.

What battle line? They haven't created a battle line. They failed to do so. They therefore are free to move as individual BG's.

In fact, that you've commented against it Dave just about proves that I'm correct.

The fact they declared they were taking a CMT for moving as a Battle Line pretty much creates the battle line. If that test is failed the Battle Line has been created and can't move in this scenario.

Your prejudices are nothing but your own and do not mean anything other than a small mindedness on your part.

[gozerius]

OMG Dave and I agree on something!!!
It's even worse if a BG trying to move with the Arty is poor, because you now have to reroll 6's on the CMT.
You cannot form a battle line on the condition that it passes the CMT. You declare that you are forming the battle line, then roll to see if it can move. All BGs and the general must remain together for the whole maneuver phase.

[dave_r]

OMG Dave and I agree on something!!!
It's even worse if a BG trying to move with the Arty is poor, because you now have to reroll 6's on the CMT.
You cannot form a battle line on the condition that it passes the CMT. You declare that you are forming the battle line, then roll to see if it can move. All BGs and the general must remain together for the whole maneuver phase.

This is also the one time in the game that having undrilled skirmishers makes a difference, in that if they are included in the line they need to throw an eight to pass.

[paullongmore]

In V2 there is now a much bigger difference between Drilled and undrilled Skirmishers to do with drilled not being broken through by routers after the initial rout