Evil 8.8 cm Flak vs other AA guns

[Dragoon.]

FlaK and air defense units are already the most unpopular unit for a player to use in their CORE. Making them weaker by switching to a suppression model is going to make them even less popular.

You think? I would think towed anti-tank are guns are the least used. Since for almost all battle you have to attack but for a few, ive find the towed ATG are just pointless to have. Which sucks as id like to use them, but that 1 movement just makes them to hard to get into postion. Be nice to see guns Pak40 and smaller get a 2 movement but thats off topic.

As for the 88's they do seem an uber weapon. Not just agaisnt air units, but as ATGs too. Its always one of the first things I add to a core. The smaller AA arent to bad, but given the choice to score hits of 7 and up agaisnt air targets, or 2-3's with the others, again, 88 are a no brainer to add.

Well actually when playing Germans or Russian in PG I always used some AT's just to train them for later when the cool stuff comes (Jagdpanther, ISU-152), but except for the russian campaign in PG2 I never used AA/AD units in my core. The 88 in PC is the glorious exception. The only time I really used AA units where in Dynasty General but then again most are not ballistic but missile based systems. When buying a range 10 Patriot system you finally have the feeling to get some bang for your buck. It's just a time frame issue.

[brettz123]

If you want a quick way to AA in general useful allow them all to switch between air and ground mode. That way when there aren't airplanes around you can still use them to shoot at weaker units.

The problem is you will never make an AA unit as useful as a fighter no matter what you do.

[Rudankort]

The problem is you will never make an AA unit as useful as a fighter no matter what you do.

There are various ways to make AA units more useful, although this does not mean they will become more useful than fighters - these are units with very different roles. For example, AA units could cover ground units from attacks within their range, not just in 1-hex radius. They could create a certain ZOC for enemy planes. Or, for example, in Afrika scenarios there might be a fuel pool, and so fighters, as the units which consume the most fuel, would become not feasible.

Making all AA units switchable is fine too, but I doubt it will suddenly induce people to buy more AA. Many people agree that 88mm gun is quite powerful and versatile, and to have one or two in the core is useful. But do they buy many of them? I doubt it. Then why will they start to buy lesser AA units, even with switch ability?

[brettz123]

The problem is you will never make an AA unit as useful as a fighter no matter what you do.

There are various ways to make AA units more useful, although this does not mean they will become more useful than fighters - these are units with very different roles. For example, AA units could cover ground units from attacks within their range, not just in 1-hex radius. They could create a certain ZOC for enemy planes. Or, for example, in Afrika scenarios there might be a fuel pool, and so fighters, as the units which consume the most fuel, would become not feasible.

Making all AA units switchable is fine too, but I doubt it will suddenly induce people to buy more AA. Many people agree that 88mm gun is quite powerful and versatile, and to have one or two in the core is useful. But do they buy many of them? I doubt it. Then why will they start to buy lesser AA units, even with switch ability?

I agree with much of what you are saying. Personally I only use 1 88 in my CORE because I while powerful and fun it has some serious limitations (ie 1 movement makes it not nearly as useful as it gets later in the war). I would still like to see most AA units be able to switch to attack ground units as this was commonly done during the war and was also rather effective against soft targets.

[robman]

There are various ways to make AA units more useful, although this does not mean they will become more useful than fighters - these are units with very different roles. For example, AA units could cover ground units from attacks within their range, not just in 1-hex radius.

I like this idea. Perhaps the effectiveness of the defensive fire might decline with distance, out to the far end of the unit's range. For example, an 88 (range of 3) would provide defensive fire at 100% of its strength at 0-1 hexes, 2/3 at 2 hexes, 1/3 at 3 hexes. Otherwise I fear the battleground might become a very hostile place for our beloved air units--for keep in mind that this rule would apply to the enemy as well!

[Dragoon.]

The problem is you will never make an AA unit as useful as a fighter no matter what you do.

There are various ways to make AA units more useful, although this does not mean they will become more useful than fighters - these are units with very different roles. For example, AA units could cover ground units from attacks within their range, not just in 1-hex radius.

People's General used that approach and I found it was the only game in the 5 Star Series where AA units where worth to be in your core. I must had 7 or more AA units in my core.
In People's General AA and arty units would defend adjacent units with full strength, but all other units inside their operational range with only half their strength points.
Always funny when a Chinese jet fighter attacked on of your units and then like 5 Patriot missile batteries (range 10) opened fire.

Edit:
If someone is interested to know more should google for People's General manual, page 57 game concepts, support fire.

[Anfield]

I like what some have said, be nice if AA units could fire on ground targets. That is one big draw back on them. My tracked AA when I have them, do tend to be pushed to the front with artillery behind, in the hopes some infantry will attack them so they get to fire lol The auto range defensive fire against Air targets would be a nice feature too, with reduced effective as the range goes out.

[deducter]

I think AA, especially SPAAG, can be very useful in MP, since they are so cheap. If you cannot afford the prestige to combat a horde of Meteors on Hylan Valley, get 2-3 Flakpanzer, weaken the Allied air units, then later when the situation is better you can buy some fighters and counterattack. So I think AA balance works fine for MP play.

[Molve]

And Tigers outperform Panzer IIIs, that's sort of how the game works.
But like the Tigers and Panzer IIIs, heavy AD is more expensive than light AD.

And just like with cheaper tanks, the prestige savings is seldom worth it.

(On the other hand, I don't think it is a bug that the game heavily favors quality equipment; in fact I consider it essential to the game formula's success! Any game where you couldn't buy as many Tigers as you wanted (regardless of whether the prestige cost were prohibitive, or new restictions prevented you from an "unhistorical" concentration of heavy tanks) would simply not be as much fun...

[soldier]

I've always found AA to be very useful and i finished up the eastern DLC with 2 mobile panzer flaks and 1 88. A very cheap and reliable method of keeping those horrible super strength Russian fighters down to manageable levels, saving me some expensive luftwaffe replacements. They also kept my ground force in good order when there venturing out into no mans land or holding the line. I don't like relegating the luftwaffe to defensive work as its really an offensive weapon but all too often my planes were covering my own lines, for fear of what the Russian AA might do. The fighters always have too many other jobs, are always refuelling and cost so much more. AA is also a great leveller in MP if your facing an airforce that is stronger than your own. Of course you can't buy too much but sometimes its better to have an elite tank with bristling AA backing him up than 2 bombed red star out tanks. The only unit i could not fit into my core was the towed AT gun class. I do agree that the smaller flak weapons should have some advantages in hitting power against low level opposition and soft targets. The 88's capability is somewhat exagerrated in these circumstances

[PantherII]

In the old panzer general you had 2 types of air defense. Anti-aircraft and air defense.
Anti aircraft could hit air and ground units, while the air defense only could fire at air units.
All, or most of the AA units in panzer corps should be allowed to switch between AA and ground.
For example the 2cm had devastating effect on infantry when used against them.

As for me, i keep some flak in my core for nostalgic purposes. Both 88's and sdkfz's. I dont always deploy them, but their part of the core.