Teeny tiny maps

[Ayee]

First of all, let me congratulate Slitherine on a mostly well-executed game. I've been looking for a successor to SMAC for years now, and this is as close as anyone have come.
I have one huge problem, though...

I'm the kind of player that, when playing SMAC anc Civilization and such, like to create something big. I love to explore, to build cities, to do lots of research, to manage my empire. I like to start a game and keep working on it for a while, usually going for huge maps and slow game speed. Armed conflict is not my big favourite, but I do work on it when needed.

This brings me to my one big problem with Pandora... It's tiny! And quick!
In earlier Civ games I could keep a save game for a week, working on my civilization every day. With Pandora, though, managing to make one game last an evening seems like a challenge. Yesterday I started a huge map on epic speed. By 2115 I had explored the entire map, without building a single unit, and I think I won an economic victory around 2130-35. It seems a little like a lot of games these days, that it's created for the instant gratification-crowd, not as a strategy game. I have also seen other comments about the game being combat heavy, and I have to agree. The tech tree seems very heavy on military applications instead of empire building, and other factions appears to be overly aggressive.

Now, I know the game can be modded, although I'm at a loss to find much information. Full disclosure, I know very, very little about modding other than I have to get a mod and install it, but Pandora seems like a good enough game that I want to learn so that I can make it better.
Seeing as the manual that came with the game is utterly useless in this respect, could anyone point me in the direction of any modding resources, like... How do I mod?

And if there are any others out there that could help me: How do I get a truly huge map so I can keep playing while learning to mod?

[IainMcNeil]

Thanks for the support - Proxy are the developers and deserve the credit!

On the game speed I think we're going to be looking for options to slow the pace so each tech is around for longer and the general pace is slower as there are people who want a much longer game. We need to keep the faster paced options too but we want everyone to find a way to play that they enjoy.

[SephiRok]

You can find some pointers for modding the size here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3482023

I.e. change the dimensions in WorldParameters.xml.

[Ayee]

Thanks for the support - Proxy are the developers and deserve the credit!

Yeah, my mistake there...

We need to keep the faster paced options too but we want everyone to find a way to play that they enjoy.

Yeah, I'm not asking to have the entire game changed, just that there should be options for those of us that want a longer game as well. As it is now, it feels a bit rushed, that even on epic speed, I research a tech but don't bother using it 'cause there'll be an upgrade in 20 turns anyway.

[Ayee]

You can find some pointers for modding the size here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3482023

Thanks! I'll look into it.

[Rossthegreat]

I just found out about Pandora: First Contact last night. I was too sleepy so I put it off til today.
My biggest concern was and proven to be the size of maps.

I just found out right now that what's huge for Pandora is 56x56. matrixgamescom/forums/tm.asp?m=3470740&mpage=1&key=&#3482023

That upset me greatly because what's huge for Civ 5 is 128x80. And I only play on huge for civ 5 and even then, that map size still feels too small to me but at least tolerable.
For Civ 5, tiny size is 56x36. . . .

I am not happy. I was going to buy Pandora but with how weak the maps is I changed my mind.
And plus I don't even understand what Perramas said.

Basically, make a bunch of random city names to the city list? But I don't even know if I can find the city list names for all factions and how many they will need so the game won't crash and I don't even have the game so I can't even check if I can do it or not.
Welp.

I'm feeling sad.

[SephiRok]

You shouldn't need to change anything except the size numbers in WorldParameters.xml. The cities thing is fixed in the beta and will be fixed in the release version towards the end of the week.

But you're right, with the default values there is probably not enough difference between the sizes. We'll likely change it up a bit.

[Rossthegreat]

Alright Sephirok,
how do I keep my copy of Pandora up to date when I buy it next week or whenever the patch is released?
Is it available on Steam?

[SephiRok]

It's not on Steam, but you can to option to automatically update whenever you start Pandora.

[SephiRok]

By the way, Ayee, why not play on the even slower marathon speed if epic is too fast for your tastes?

The new Huge size, in effect now, is 80x80.

[Rossthegreat]

Just bought Pandora, dling it now atm. Lets see how good this 80x80 is for pandora.

[cherryfunk]

The new Huge size, in effect now, is 80x80.

I'm not sure that 'huge' means what you think it means. Maybe change the name to 'moderately big'? 'Not tiny'?

Some of us 4X players like *really* big maps. That's what we want when you promise us a 'huge' map.

[Dr. Foo]

I don't have a problem with the size of the maps, it's the shapes that bother me. Every maps is round shaped. I would like some shapes that are longer horizontally. The shapes of the maps are not fun to play or explore. When playing Pangaea it's just a blob. Continents are too small even on huge. There needs to be islands and uninhabited smaller continents to explore and conquer. Most of the time I don't even bother building a navy because there is no reason to go to sea or fight there.

[jdmillard]

I don't have a problem with the size of the maps...

Me either. Originally I was a little disappointed at the "small" map sizes; that was until I played a few games all the way through. I don't think that Pandora is really meant to have enormous maps. Here's why: Typically, every city will eventually have every operation (especially when the game gets played all the way to the end of the tech tree). More cities on the map means there are more operations waiting to be deployed which takes all the strategy out of the game. Think about it. If the remaining factions all have 30 black hole generators each, the most effective "strategy" is to simply preemptively strike and take out the entire military of the opponent before their next turn. Now before you roll your eyes, I'll say that I've done it. It throws off the balance of operations in the game. Obviously the counter argument is that larger maps will have more cities to conquer and more units to target... but I think that my "operation inflation" point still stands.

I love operations, but when they are inflated it takes away from the game.

[boulugre]

...

I love operations, but when they are inflated it takes away from the game.

Good point, I really think black holes deserve a nerf of some kind, either by raising its costs, either by reducing its power ( Or both )

[Rossthegreat]

I don't have a problem with the size of the maps...

Me either. Originally I was a little disappointed at the "small" map sizes; that was until I played a few games all the way through. I don't think that Pandora is really meant to have enormous maps. Here's why: Typically, every city will eventually have every operation (especially when the game gets played all the way to the end of the tech tree). More cities on the map means there are more operations waiting to be deployed which takes all the strategy out of the game. Think about it. If the remaining factions all have 30 black hole generators each, the most effective "strategy" is to simply preemptively strike and take out the entire military of the opponent before their next turn. Now before you roll your eyes, I'll say that I've done it. It throws off the balance of operations in the game. Obviously the counter argument is that larger maps will have more cities to conquer and more units to target... but I think that my "operation inflation" point still stands.

I love operations, but when they are inflated it takes away from the game.

Then you will get hit by counter blackholes in return. Presumely if other faction is smart enough to notice as well and they will pummel you with blackholes as well because you are the initiator. MAD!

Its just a typical problem in 4x games with Weapons of Mass Destruction, Both countries with icbms everywhere? War dow'd? Nukes flying everywhere obliterating everything in civ4. xD

Why you think Nukes never got deployed so far in real life eh?

I got to be a emperor of the destroyed world. Buncha cities lost to the rising ocean levels. whole world got turned into desert. Cue in the mad max scenes then it'll be perfect.
Want to keep your cities big but you cannot anymore because of Desert? Spam Sid's sushi xD

In case I wasn't clear enough, Imperium spams Blackholes on Terra Salvum, Divine Ascendant sees good excuse to spam blackholes and does so on Imperium with Terra salvum.
Noxium and Torga conspire in the backstage and spams blackholes on everyone else.

The AI currently as it is simply don't care if blackholes get deployed or not, as long as they're not the one getting hit by it.

[jdmillard]

Then you will get hit by counter blackholes in return.

Not true. Each city I take in that first turn of preemptive attack is one less black hole that the enemy has when he tries to hit me back on his turn. After I black hole the crap out of his territory, I just send a few drop pods down to claim the cities. Unfortunately, it's even more complicated than that because I can also EMP the remainder of the cities that I'm not able to take in that first turn. Preemptively striking offers tons of advantages to the attacker.

The idea I had yesterday is this: When a faction builds the black hole generator building, it gets 1 black hole with a huge cooldown. When it builds a second building, the faction still only has 1 black hole but with a reduced cooldown. Make it so that you can only ever have 1 deploy-able black hole at a time and it's cooldown is dependent on how many generator buildings you have. Example: y is cooldown and x is the number of generators.
y=a/(x+b) + c
a=55.1
b=0.9
c=1
Truncated results:
# of generator buildings . . cooldown (turns)
. . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30
. . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25
. . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
. . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
. . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
. . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
. . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
As the number of generators increases, the cooldown will approach 1 turn. If you want it to approach a different number, change c. The sensitivity and starting cooldown can be manipulated by adjusting a and b. If you plot this, it will make an inverted relationship, but the same principle can be applied using an exponential decay. The coefficients could be dependent on the number to territories on a map in order to adjust for larger maps with a higher number of cities

[BlueTemplar]

I like this idea! (Too much of a bother to code though I guess?)

[jdmillard]

I like this idea! (Too much of a bother to code though I guess?)

Thanks. I think it would be cool to implement and maybe make the black hole even more crazy... like maybe have the hole reach 2 hexes away but the 2-distance hexes will take less damage and not leave those hexes black like the initial 7 hexes that are targeted (the closer you are, the more dangerous it is). This way the black hole is still powerful, but the preemptive "wipe-out-the-enemy-and-all-their-cities-in-one-turn-before-they-can-react" strategy isn't overpowered. The one who initiates war can do a devastating attack, but will also have to prepare for a retaliation.

[boulugre]

I like this idea! (Too much of a bother to code though I guess?)

Yes I like it too. Keeps the black hole as an terror mass weapon to be taken in account but doesn't unbalance the game as it does know with silly spamming.

+1 !