SWS Headhunter and Xenomorph Pheropod

[Xytop]

Does someone effectively use the Headhunter Weapon or the Pheropod device? I was trying out different kind of units and I just can't find a way to use them well. I think building a flamethrower soldier is always the better choice. Before I present the math behind my conclusion, I would like to hear some opinions or even clear examples in what situation those technologies are worth it.

Fun Fact: If you combine those two technologies, you can build (or refit) a unit that dies after producing because it will have 0.0 strength

[jdmillard]

Fun Fact: If you combine those two technologies, you can build (or refit) a unit that dies after producing because it will have 0.0 strength

I mentioned this back in the Beta, I guess it never got fixed.

[Apheirox]

Yes, I use both these devices (see: Aspidoch capture thread). No really, they're both useful. I had both a captured Galeth and a Devourer in my game against boulugre at the time where the best weapon was still basic 6.0 tanks.

Best way to use the Pod is obviously on the flamethrower, possibly coupled with the assault modifier device. You then use one default flamethrower (flame, best level armor you have and no device or defense module device) to damage the alien enough for you to capture. This is where the SWS comes in, as well: By shooting with the SWS you will aggro the alien and it will attack your defense module flamer, who will then take off most of its health, then finish it off with the Pod trooper. You lose only a flamethrower and gain a 8.0 megatank - pretty good deal.

The SWS is basically poor man's artillery, wearing down enemy units enough that you won't die by attacking. It's really useful for defeating Queens on nests, as well.

[Xytop]

With my attempts I always lost 2 units and sometimes my units were too strong and killed the Galeth. So I see that with your way it could be more viable. But it needs a lot technologies and troops of each type. Even if you get the 8.0 unit with only 1 unit loss, you'll also have to take into account that you can't use your Pod trooper again to take over another unit (until your galeth dies). So instead of building those 2 units (or 3, depending if you count the SWS as a less useful unit) and having them at the right time at the right place to take over an alien, wouldn't it be cheaper to build a 6.0+ tank directly?

Btw, if you take over the 2.0 flying aliens and disband them as soon as they have full health again, you get around 70 credits. In my opinion thats the best use of the pod trooper

[fortydayweekend]

I tend to base it on the tech tree, if tanks are quick to get (ie the beeline to them includes lots of other good techs) I won't bother with capturing aliens, but if the tank beeline is long or not useful I'll get a devourer or 2 instead.

I haven't used SWS ever, kinda like ships, I don't really bother with them. Outflanking and attacking from hills/mountains/forest is usually good enough to ensure only 1 casualty.

Pheropods work even better on Avenger hulls but if you've got tanks you don't really need the aliens.

[Hiho216]

I think pheropods could be improved by removing credit upkeep for alien units, seeing as there's a limit you can have anyways. Would make capturing aliens a more viable strategy to keep military up even with a weaker economy.

[Apheirox]

Removing upkeep completely would probably make pet aliens overpowered, but they are likely too costly right now. The aspidoch has a 16(!) credit upkeep which definitely seems unreasonable. If you get good at capturing aliens, though, they essentially become a free source of heavily upgraded tanks/jets. A ~40 strength Aspidoch with the +50% defensive bonus and the free Aspidoch Tiling upgrade could be a nightmare for the enemy navy, also.

So instead of building those 2 units (or 3, depending if you count the SWS as a less useful unit) and having them at the right time at the right place to take over an alien, wouldn't it be cheaper to build a 6.0+ tank directly?

8.0 =/= 6.0. As stated also, capturing the Galeth costs less production and an SWS is quite useful for not just monster hunting. I do think it should have its range increased to two hexes, though, it does get kind of overshadowed by the artillery (even though it deals more damage).

[boulugre]

Yes, I use both these devices (see: Aspidoch capture thread). No really, they're both useful. I had both a captured Galeth and a Devourer in my game against boulugre at the time where the best weapon was still basic 6.0 tanks.

Haha yes your devourer and galeth did concerned me when i discovered them, but they ended doing very little difference at the end. Should the wildlife expand and develop in more powerful and useful units along the course of the game, then it would stay interesting to constantly capture them

[Hiho216]

Removing upkeep completely would probably make pet aliens overpowered, but they are likely too costly right now. The aspidoch has a 16(!) credit upkeep which definitely seems unreasonable. If you get good at capturing aliens, though, they essentially become a free source of heavily upgraded tanks/jets. A ~40 strength Aspidoch with the +50% defensive bonus and the free Aspidoch Tiling upgrade could be a nightmare for the enemy navy, also.

Right, but they cost a gimped unit to be able to capture. The unit with pheropods vs aliens captured ratio is 1 to 1. Removing the costs would make it a viable strategy in the early game, but progressively less useful as the game goes on. They could also make it so removing the pheropod device either isn't worth anything to refit away, or costs money to remove (restoring weapons to their original function). I don't know if it would be possible, but you could also link the alien directly with its captor (who's capture limit can be upgraded with tech), so that it can't go beyond a certain distance away from it before becoming neutral again. It would add a reason to want to keep alien hives in the game, possibly defending them as a resource instead of always busting them for credits. Or, as an objective, target the alien hives and the pheropod units to deny them their use of the tactic.

I think it would make the aliens far more likely to survive into the late game, and would be another aspect of the game that people would design their tech around. If they can rely on alien units, they might not need to focus as hard into military technology. If their sources of aliens get destroyed, they're stuck with a horde of pheropod canisters that need to be upgraded into regulars, and may also be behind in weapons and armor technology. It would add to Terra Salvum's special ability, but would make a certain amount of sense for any faction to use. It may be tricky to balance right, but it could add a lot of depth to how xenomorphs are used.

[fortydayweekend]

We can run some numbers to see how useful they are - specifically Devourers which I think are the most useful, though the numbers are the same for Galeths.

Your sacrifice hellfire and the cost of your "hunter" unit is 26 production. That'll give you an 8-strength alien with an upkeep of 4/turn. (Your "hunter" can be refitted into something else once you've got enough aliens, so we won't count its upkeep, and only count the 3/4 of the cost of the Pheropod which doesn't get refunded during retrofitting, so the hunter costs 6 production).

With tanks, you can get a 2 4-strength avenger tanks for 64 production, also with an upkeep of 4 credits total. So a single 8-strength alien is 304 credits of rushed production cheaper than two 4-strength basic tanks. Two tanks are more mobile but the alien is tougher so I don't think you could definitively say that one is more preferable than the other, so the 304 credits (one average hive) makes the alien a much better option.

With Titanium you could get a 6-strength tank for 48 production, with an upkeep of 2 credits. The alien is still looking good here, a 6-strength tank is arguably about as useful as an 8-str devourer (probably more useful than the slow Galeth) depending on how many roads you've built. It would take 88 turns for the alien to have cost the same amount as the tank, and you're unlikely to still be using them that far into the game. They will have had a lot of extra turns of action while the tank would still be waiting to be researched and built.

With Assault Tactics/Elusion Fields/Serenity Cannons you're starting to get a more powerful unit for 64 production and 2/turn upkeep - but needing 154 turns before it's cheaper than the alien.

So all up the aliens look like a pretty good bet, at least until the end of the hive clearing/invading stage of the game. As you can't upgrade them the best strategy would be to use them as cannon fodder when they've outlived their usefulness. And this assumes that you use snipers/flanking/terrain to only lose one basic hellfire trooper per alien, if it costs 2 troopers then tanks are the better option.

[Rossthegreat]

I used the Sws headhunter as a way to weaken the enemy unit so that a colonial trooper will have 100% chance of defeating it with one strike with it's lance guns during colonial era.

But I've never bothered with xenomorph pheropods because I don't really see the point in going to big a hassle to capture one alien when I can just crank out Colonial troopers with lance gun/steel armor and Defense forcefield. Only time I ever have aliens in my retinue is when i get them from ancient ruins. Problem with aliens is that they're no longer relevant when you enter Mechanization era giving you access to gauss gun/armor. Even colonial trooper can gun galeths/devours down when that happens.

Only the sea giants give some trouble at all.. even then, i'd just rather build the barracudas and hit the asipodahs with orbital bombardment and then finish it off once win chance hits 100%. Same for leviathans. Been swatting a bunch of them even with lance guns on them. Even when the leviathan illustration shows a barracuda using serenity cannons on them xD

Well, i admit i'm biased because I play with Very High Aggression aliens. Turns is at a premium at early stages, never know when you will be facing a huge charge of galeths and devourers at same time, I did today.. almost lost the game right there. There was so many that even level 10 steel avengers got smashed.

[boulugre]

Regarding Alien capture, IMO the 8 strength units are not the best choice as they get outdated pretty quick.

A tactic I just used and which is pretty neat is to equip a tank with the pheropod and attack an hive. This will give you a queen, which have the healing ability. A queen can be very useful to put in your main army stack on an early game war as healing upgrades only come at mechanization era. And even once you have discovered healing upgrade and additional medic is always handy.

Spitters are also not to be looked down as they are artillery and can stay useful to weaken enemy stacks even if they are outdated.

[player1]

Good point about spitters. They are as good as colonial tank artillery and can be gained sooner.