Rename question

[shawkhan]

[quote="the_iron_duke

Using a regiment as the unit scale, three Panzer Divisions would be represented by 12 units (16 units for four divisions), which leaves plenty of slots available for the attached units and aircraft.[/quote]

Twelve units for three panzer divisions means with even a limit of thirty, we are talking about 7 divisions of armor at the regimental scale. That is actually stronger than any panzer army in the war.
If you envision air units at the Luftflotte level rather than as Geschwaders, things get really out of focus here. A unit of recon or Flak Must be a battalion, yet a unit of panzers you think is a regiment? Suit yourself, but in the interest of diversity, plausibility and Mom's apple pie, I will keep my armor at the battalion level as I find it more interesting to play with the different tank models available.
Live Long and Prosper!

[hs1611]

Peace & Long Life!

[the_iron_duke]

Twelve units for three panzer divisions means with even a limit of thirty, we are talking about 7 divisions of armor at the regimental scale. That is actually stronger than any panzer army in the war.
If you envision air units at the Luftflotte level rather than as Geschwaders, things get really out of focus here. A unit of recon or Flak Must be a battalion, yet a unit of panzers you think is a regiment? Suit yourself, but in the interest of diversity, plausibility and Mom's apple pie, I will keep my armor at the battalion level as I find it more interesting to play with the different tank models available.
Live Long and Prosper!

I don't think you understand. A Panzerkorps was made up of three or four divisions. In addition to this, other non-divisional units would be attached to the corps to augment it on an operational basis. The units I listed - heavy tanks, heavy artillery, heavy anti-air, heavy tank destroyers, rocket launchers, paratroopers, alpine troops, bridge-engineers - do not exist within the Panzer Divisions but would come under the category of attached units or Heerestruppen.

So I am not talking about having a Panzerkorps of seven divisions, I am talking about a Panzerkorps of three or four divisions (as was historically the case). The remainder of the core units are made up of the attached units and aircraft.

If you read the thread on building a historical core I posted then you would see that recons and Flak I have included as Heerestruppen (for the purposes of the regiment-as-game-unit core, at least). I pointed out that this system does bend the rules as many of the units, such as Werfer, heavy-tank, heavy tank-destroyer units and others existed as independent battalions rather than independent regiments, so they might be considered as a couple of battalions "brigaded" together.

With the core limit one has to make a choice between a diminished Panzerkorps - half a Panzerkorps - when using a battalion as the unit-scale. Or a full Panzerkorps with several attached units and aircraft, although this does compromise the organisational integrity of the Panzerkorps by leaving out the formations smaller than a regiment.

So there are two ways of representing a Panzerkorps in the single-player campaign, neither of which is ideal or correct. Viewing the unit-scale as a regiment will give you a stronger core overall, though, with greater tactical flexibility.

[shawkhan]

Well, here is the OOB of one of the strongest Panzer Korps ever, the famous III ! This was the high point of Wehrmacht strength at the battle of Kursk. Since the limit at Prokhorovka is 45+5, that gives 50 units available. Notice that Schwere Abteilung 503 (Tiger I) is included at the corps level. Disregarding signals battalion and other ancillary support troops, we are talking about only 15 units or so at the regimental level. At regimental level therefore, you could indeed simulate an entire panzer army.
III.Panzerkorps, July 1943 - Operation Citadel[edit]r so
Corps Troops (Stab der Korps) Artillery Commander 3 (Arko 3)
43rd Panzer Signal Battalion
Korps-Nachrichten-Abteilung 43
Korps-Nachschubtruppen 403
Feldgendarmerie-Trupp 403

Corps attached units 228.Sturmgeschütz-Brigade
393.Sturmgeschütz-Brigade
905.Sturmgeschütz-Brigade
503.schwere-Panzer-Abteilung

6.Panzer-Division under Major General Walther von Hünersdorff 11.Panzer-Regiment (with 86 tanks)
4.Panzergrenadier-Regiment
114.Panzergrenadier-Regiment
76.Panzerartillerie-Regiment

7.Panzer-Division under Lieutenant General Hans Freiherr von Funck 25.Panzer-Regiment (with 87 tanks)
6.Panzergrenadier-Regiment
7.Panzergrenadier-Regiment
78.Panzerartillerie-Regiment

19.Panzer-Division under Lieutenant General Gustav Schmidt 27.Panzer-Regiment (with 70 tanks)
73.Panzergrenadier-Regiment
74.Panzergrenadier-Regiment
19.Panzerartillerie-Regiment

168.Infanterie-Division under Major General Walter Chales de Beaulieu 417.Infanterie-Regiment
429.Infanterie-Regiment
442.Infanterie-Regiment
248.Artillerie-Regiment

[the_iron_duke]

To model that Panzerkorps you have shown at battalion scale would mean 52 divisional units (assuming they are following standard Tables of Organisation; an infantry division of the time would also be 13 units). If the Prokhorovka figure is correct, then even in the biggest scenario of the game you would only be able to field 86% of the Panzerkorps' units. It also means you have no slots for any aircraft or any attached units whatsoever.

The number of core units allowed varies from scenario to scenario but, according to the statistics posted previously, the range will typically be between 32 and 40 units. That translates to between two and a half and three Panzer Divisions, rather than the authentic three or four (and, of course, no aircraft or attached units).

I am not saying using battalion as the unit-scale is wrong. I'm saying it is one of two ways, while you are saying it's the only way.

[shawkhan]

Well personally, I use Battalions for armor and regiments for infantry when modeling formations. There are only 2 battalions in a panzer regiment.
Funny, I only count 39 battalions here, unless you are trying to count the panzer news, supply and signal units, which aren't modeled in the game.

[wanwei]

Personally, i used btn instead of rgt. Panzer Korps is from 2 to 4 divisions. 2 especially in later stages of the war.

One point to note: German division tends to be smaller in terms of manpower compared to Allied.

[the_iron_duke]

Funny, I only count 39 battalions here, unless you are trying to count the panzer news, supply and signal units, which aren't modeled in the game.

There are four divisions in the Panzerkorps you posted - three Panzer Divisions and one Infantry Division. According to the standard Tables of Organisation each Panzer Division would have 13 battalion-sized game units: a Panzer regiment of two tank battalions, two Panzergrenadier regiments each with two Panzergrenadier battalions, an artillery regiment of three artillery battalions, along with divisional support of one recon battalion, one anti-tank battalion, one anti-air battalion and a pioneer battalion. (The infantry division standard type would have been three infantry regiments, each containing two infantry battalions, an artillery regiment of four artillery battalions, along with divisional support of an anti-tank battalion, engineer battalion and "fusilier" recon battalion (bicyclists) (note they don't have organic anti-air).

So both the Panzer and infantry divisions have 13 game units each. Since there are four divisions that would make 52 units.

Well personally, I use Battalions for armor and regiments for infantry when modeling formations.

If you're doing that then you're distorting the Panzer Divisions as a Panzer battalion and an infantry battalion are equivalent units.

One point to note: German division tends to be smaller in terms of manpower compared to Allied.

It depends on which Allied forces you're talking about. For example, a Panzer Division and British Armoured Division were roughly comparable (mid-late war) - they would both be represented by 13 game units. A British Infantry Division, however, was bigger than a German Infantry Division - 17 game units to 13.

[the_iron_duke]

Here are two 1944 40-unit German forces I have prepared - 40 units being the upper limit of the core unit allowance (whether the maximum is 40 or 45, I'm not sure).

The first picture accurately models three Panzer Divisions at battalion-as-game unit scale. There is one spare unit slot which I have made as an aircraft.

The second picture is using the regiment-as-game unit scale, along the lines of how I described in the thread I linked to earlier. It has four Panzer Divisions, several attached units and aircraft. It is true that as everything is compressed, lots of different units have to be combined into one. I have suggested that in order to best succeed in the campaign one opts for whichever unit is best (according to the specific unit models that were historically used, so no Tigers as divisional tanks, for example). The Panzer regiment had one battalion of Panthers and one battalion of Panzer IV and so I have combined them into a single Panther unit.

It seems to be a common belief that due to the high level of enemy tanks found in the single-player campaign scenarios that it is near impossible to use a historical core successfully through the campaign. By choosing the best relevant unit in each category one has the better chance of getting through the campaign, while still keeping things somewhat along historical lines. Using a Hummel for the Panzer Artillery Regiment, as I have done, gives one a big boost as, although Hummels were Panzer Division self-propelled artillery, they would actually only have made up one out of the nine artillery companies in a Panzer Artillery Regiment.

The number of attached units is also rather generous but you can think of your Panzerkorps as the Wehrmacht's most prized formation, the spearhead of all Germany's major battles and High Command is giving you all the support they can muster.





Another problem I found when I was doing the campaigns using battalion-as-unit scale is that there would be small incremental increases in core unit allowance. A Panzer Division is a big 13 unit formation. You might go through a whole campaign with a couple of divisions worth of units and then bits and pieces of another Panzer Division that you are forming on the battlefields of the campaign. What do these units represent - a Panzer Division embryo? A Panzer Division as a four game-unit formation makes it much easier to expand the core through the campaign.

Well, I hope I have at least demonstrated to you that regiment-as-unit-scale is a viable option. Since a Panzer Corps unit's size is not stated in the game there is no obligation to stick to one dogma or the other.

[shawkhan]

My main objection is the loss of detail when you go to larger formations. When a panzer regiment has one battalion of PzIIIs and one of PzIVs, which do you choose?
When panzergrenadiers were incorporated into panzer divisions, only one of the battalions in the regiment was equipped with halftracks. How do you simulate that with just one unit?
Many divisions would only have a company-sized abteilung(detachment) of some of the units in the game, such as sturmgeschutz or recon. That is bad enough at the battalion level. Many of the attached units to panzer divisions were only battalion-sized. They would have a pioniere battalion, recon battalion and a Flak battalion from about 1943 on. Which regiment-sized unit do you choose to simulate these three? Assuming regiment-sized units leads to gross inaccuracies in unit organization.
I like detail.
Infantry is the only exception in the game to my mind. There was essentially no variation from one infantry battalion to another, so using one infantry to simulate an entire infantry regiment works in the game. That is how one can simulate an entire panzer corps with minimal loss of detail.
If you choose everything at a regimental level you would never be justified with using anti-tank units, Tiger tanks, recon units, pionieres or some of the other organizations which were Never used at the regimental level.
Regardless, if what you do makes you happy, go for it. I only say it is not a very accurate depiction of a panzer corps.
Live Long and Prosper!

[the_iron_duke]

Your viewpoint doesn't make any sense to me. You are talking about how you like to adhere to the organisational integrity and criticise the regimental-scale for deviating from this. Then you wave your hand and leave out half of the Panzer Division's infantry, so I don't see how that is any different.

[shawkhan]

Nope, I leave out None of a panzer division' s infantry. Their infantry was termed 'Schutzen' prior to halftracks being available, then panzergrenadiers. All of their battalions are included.
When I say infantry, I am referring to infantry division regiments. Their infantry was nothing exceptional as it wasn't motorized or mechanized. To tell the truth, if you do this rationally, I think you can include every battalion in a typical panzer corps anyway. Most panzer corps never had more than 3 divisions in them.
If you would look at the III corps example, you would realize that this was an exceptionally large panzer corps. The only corps more powerful than this would be the 1st SS corps first led by Sepp Dietrich. Even this corps didn't have regimental-sized units of all types.
Live Long and Prosper!

[hs1611]

There is no proper size for the game units. The map hex sizes changes from scenario to scenario, and so does the size of the game unit.
You use what you feel comfortable with. Battalions, regiments, a mix of both, it doesn't matter. Use whatever works for you.

I prefer battalions. Next is the Order of Battle of my 1st, of 3, Panzer Divisions:

1.Panzer-Division
Panzer-Regiment 1
Panzer-Bataillon I - I/PzR 1
Panzer-Bataillon II - II/PzR 1
Panzer-Bataillon III - III/PzR 1
Schützen-Regiment 1
Schützen-Bataillon I - I/SchtzR 1
Schützen-Bataillon II - II/SchtzR 1
Schützen-Regiment 101
Schützen-Bataillon I - I/SchtzR 101
Schützen-Bataillon II - II/SchtzR 101
Artillerie-Regiment 11
Artillerie-Bataillon I - I/ArtR 11
Artillerie-Bataillon II - II/ArtR 11
Artillerie-Bataillon III - III/ArtR 11

Pioniere-Bataillon 1 - PioBtl 1
Aufklärungs-Abteilung 1 - AufkAbt 1
Panzerjäger-Abteilung 1 - PzJgAbt 1
Sturmgeschütz-Abteilung 1 - StuGAbt 1
Flakartillerie-Abteilung 1 - FlakAbt 1

Throughout the war Panzer Divisions changed from having 2 Panzer Regiments with 2 Battalions each, to 1 PzRgt with 2 or 3 Btl, sometimes 1 PzRgt with 1 Btl.
They had anywhere from 1 to 2 Infantry Regiments, from 2 to 4 Battalions.
Since I am too lazy to keep changing my OoB as the war progresses I decided on that compromisse.
Yes, at the beggining I can't even field one entire Division. So what? I pretend the other 2 are in reserve. It doesn't matter. I like it. It works for me.

As for naming conventions, and using the 1st Battalion of the 115th Artillery Regiment as an exemple I've seen several different unit designations.

I/ArtR 115
I/ArtRgt 115
I./Art.Rgt. 115

I believe that all of these are correct, since even the germans did not always use the same designation. I use the first one because... because I started using it and liked it.
You use whatever you want. You can even make up your own unit designators. Why not 1/115 Artillery or 1/115 Art?

I've already said too much.
Just enjoy whatever naming conventions and unit sizes you prefer.
Discuss them if you will, but none are more correct, or more wrong, than the other.

Peace & Long Life!

[the_iron_duke]

Well personally, I use Battalions for armor and regiments for infantry when modeling formations.

Infantry is the only exception in the game to my mind. There was essentially no variation from one infantry battalion to another, so using one infantry to simulate an entire infantry regiment works in the game. That is how one can simulate an entire panzer corps with minimal loss of detail.

Nope, I leave out None of a panzer division' s infantry.

You are contradicting yourself or not explaining yourself very well.

Most panzer corps never had more than 3 divisions in them.

Look through the lists for the German 2nd Panzer Army's order of battle, for example: http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/n ... 39GXPB.pdf
Or the lists on this website: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... zKprps.htm .

There are many Panzerkorps with more than three divisions - some even go up to six divisions (although they are not all Panzer Divisions).

The game is not really designed for playing with a historical core. The number of enemy tanks faced can be unrealistically high. By using the regiment as the game-unit scale one can build as strong a core as possible to counteract this, while still retaining some historical principles. If you are going to play it at battalion-scale then your best bet is to go for two Panzer Divisions and the rest of the core slots as attached units and aircraft. It will, of course, be a lot weaker than the core produced by the regimental method
and may not get you through the campaign unless you're playing at easy difficulty level.

As I've said, I like the battalion-as-game-unit scale. I used it the first time I played the single-player campaign and it is the standard scale I use when building my scenarios (although I have made one as company-as-game-unit). In my scenarios (which have used a Panzerkorps of three Panzer Divisions so far) the number of German units, including attached units and aircraft, comes to 55/60 units which is obviously well beyond the core limit allowance.

[GSlapshot]

I use the rename function to identify hero attributes. My scheme is: Atk+1/Def+2/Move+1 etc. Durning deployment you can see which units can do what and need to be placed where for defense, attack or spotting. Also you can see that Rudel 1 is weak on attack before you get Rudel 2.

[shawkhan]

Myself, I like to abbreviate as much as possible.
The most important hero for armor is movement imo, so I will put it first on armor. M2ADS would be the shortest way I could list +1move,+2attack,+1defense and +1spotting.
This leaves me room to add more historical data such as 3rd Pz ABt, or in the case of a special hero I like to use their name to give the game some additional flavor.