Title of Byzantine Army Book

PaulByzan · Post by **PaulByzan** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:14 pm

Just a suggestion, but since the upcoming Byzantine army book ends with the Nikephorian List, which is arguably actually the height of the Byzantine Empire and its military, isn't the tagline "Decline and Fall" actually a misnomer? The fall of the Empire is contained in the lists in the Ottoman Book. Decline and Fall projects a very negative image of a weak military force which might impact people's interest in the Byzantines, which in the era covered by the book, had possibly the finest armies in the world for certain periods. Just a thought.

Paul Georgian

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:25 pm

You'll really have to mention it to Osprey as that sort of thing is their decision. Mind you I suspect that it is now way too late for a change to be made.

I'd also point out that the list ends with Manzikert which if not a fall was a nasty stumble and followed a period of significant military decline - so you might get a sort of supporting argument there

PaulByzan · Post by **PaulByzan** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:42 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:You'll really have to mention it to Osprey as that sort of thing is their decision. Mind you I suspect that it is now way too late for a change to be made.

I'd also point out that the list ends with Manzikert which if not a fall was a nasty stumble and followed a period of significant military decline - so you might get a sort of supporting argument there

Nic,

Think you're probably right in the title change especially with the cover art printed. How does one mention such things to Osprey btw? I'd like to review the Byzantine beta army files, if possible. I've already signed the release NDA and sent it to J Mcneil last year. I've authored the Byzantine army lists for the Warrior and Armati rules and assisted in WAB and DBM, so I have some experience with them.

Also, wasn't sure if Manzikert army was in the Byzantine book or the Crusades book but, you're correct it was a nasty stumble. But the Empire did recover, until under Manuel Komnenus it was arguably again the strongest military power in Christendom.

Paul Georgian

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:25 pm

No idea about how you contact Osprey about these things - you'd have to dig around their website I suspect, perhaps look at their blog to see if there are email addies for their contributors?

As for the lists I believe the situation is that no more beta lists are being sent out as publication is now underway.

shall · Post by **shall** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:07 am

As for the lists I believe the situation is that no more beta lists are being sent out as publication is now underway.

This is correct. If you havea good name idea drop IRM an e-mail via the slitherine site but I suspect it is too late now.

Si

Razgor · Post by **Razgor** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:39 pm

I feel like you Paul. The title is terrible...

Kineas1 · Post by **Kineas1** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:42 pm

Concur, Paul. Why is it that no one likes Byzantium? Oh, yeah... Gibbon. He has a lot to answer for.

Darn that 18th C. classicist, anyway.

How about "How the Last Romans saved Civilization"

Chris Cameron, who plays Komnenan in various other rules...

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:05 am

How about "Ruling Over Kings" - the second part of the Byzantine motto?

Cheers,
Scott

Fenton · Post by **Fenton** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:26 am

Kineas1 wrote:Concur, Paul. Why is it that no one likes Byzantium? Oh, yeah... Gibbon. He has a lot to answer for.

Darn that 18th C. classicist, anyway.

How about "How the Last Romans saved Civilization"

Chris Cameron, who plays Komnenan in various other rules...

For me it was the thought of having to paint all those shield designs!, but with littlebigmen shield decals it might be a thing of the apst

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:02 pm

At least "Decline and Fall" conveys some information. People are likely to guess that it does have something to do with Rome (or New Rome in this case

.) IMHO, ithe title is both classier with its Gibbon referemce and more informative than titles like "Immortal File" or "Eternal Empire" (or was that "Eternal Fire" and "Immortal Empire")

Chris Burr

Kineas1 · Post by **Kineas1** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:54 pm

That's a pretty good point, Chris. You may even have convinced me.

Okie · Post by **Okie** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:57 pm

I personaly love my Byzantine Armie's,and field allmost all period's.

PaulByzan · Post by **PaulByzan** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:39 am

batesmotel wrote:At least "Decline and Fall" conveys some information. People are likely to guess that it does have something to do with Rome (or New Rome in this case .) IMHO, ithe title is both classier with its Gibbon referemce and more informative than titles like "Immortal File" or "Eternal Empire" (or was that "Eternal Fire" and "Immortal Empire")

Chris Burr

Hey Chris, how ya doing? Are you still living in Arlington? Are you getting back into Ancients via FoG? Guess who I just played a game of FoG with? Hal Edgett. FoG's bringing everyone back out although we're using WAB for 25mm's.

Paul G

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:10 am

I think the title is appropriate. I think of the Byzantine dark ages/ early medieval period from 500-1300 as being something like the introduction to "dads army" with the retreating arrows. Being on the back foot, particularly for the thematic period after the heydey of prior centuries in italy and north africa was one of the motivators for me to collect in that period.

I picture them as beset by hostile enemies on all sides and surviving by playing one off against the other and clever efficient use of their armies.

Quintus · Post by **Quintus** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:01 pm

The Byzantines or (East) Romans had a good claim to the title "Eternal Empire", so perhaps that would have been the better assignation.

Title of Byzantine Army Book

Title of Byzantine Army Book

Re: Title of Byzantine Army Book

title is fine