Later Seleucid for newbie

[oberKGBler]

Hy,

Im quite new to FoG and try to find some information about the Indo-Greeks but their is hardly nothing to find.

I like the story behind this nation and the possibility of combining Greeks and Indians but because Im new to the game I have no feeling for the strenghs and weaknesses of the troops.

So what are your thoughts on Indo-Greeks?

thx

[batesmotel]

The Indo-Greeks represent the rump state left after the decline of the Graeco-Bactrian kingdom lead to the loss of control of the areas outside India.. You will probably have better luck if you search on Graeco-Bactrian or Greeks in Bactria for more information.

Chris

[oberKGBler]

Hy batesmotel,

Thanks for the info. But I meant the Indo-Greeks in FoG on the tabletop.

sry for my bad english.

[batesmotel]

Madeaxeman.com has a little info at http://www.madaxeman.com/FoGAM/tiki-ind ... Indo-Greek.

Chris

[ravenflight]

Hy,

Im quite new to FoG and try to find some information about the Indo-Greeks but their is hardly nothing to find.

I like the story behind this nation and the possibility of combining Greeks and Indians but because Im new to the game I have no feeling for the strenghs and weaknesses of the troops.

So what are your thoughts on Indo-Greeks?

thx

A hard question to answer, as I don't know your situation or how you plan to use the army. Ultimately I think it's an army that will struggle big time against ahistorical opponents and struggle against historical opponents.

[grahambriggs]

Hy batesmotel,

Thanks for the info. But I meant the Indo-Greeks in FoG on the tabletop.

sry for my bad english.

I think they are an OK army on the tabletop - not great but not terrible. You do get some good combat troops - elephants, Pikes, cavalry but not in large numbers. You do get a lot of medium foot archers. So I think the key to using the army is to make sure you use all the parts of it to good effect in combination. Some suggestions:

- use a lot of brush or open fields that the archers will like
- most opponents will have more tough troops but less of them. They will hit hard in one place and delay elsewhere.
- so you need to hold on where they hit (an IC and rear support can do a lot if you are losing melees)
- and push hard where they are delaying (archers are good to push with as they will shoot skirmishers down if they don't fall back)

[pugsville]

Indo Greek - is more indian than greek. mainly Indian army (elephants and mass of archers) with a few Greco-Bactrian units (pikes)
Greaco-Bactran - a more Macedonian style army with a lot of a cavalry, fewer pikes, and some indian units available.

Both armies have a lot of different troop types, (Greco-Bactrian can be fielded as a simpler all cavalry force IIRC) the more different troop types the harder a army can be to handle, with not enough of any particular troop type to make it a real strength on the table. Elephants are not that popular in FOG, (well here in Oz) it;s rare to see them at all let alone in numbers. Haven't seen an Indian army under FOG at all.

[grahambriggs]

Small correction if I may, elephants have been strengthened in v2 such that they are now a viable troop type - they get three dice per base at impact. I've used them in 2 competitions this year and been top scorer. It is true that they were poor value in v1.

[oberKGBler]

Hy guys,
you are helping me much allready.

Maybe I should give you some background. I´m working at my first FoG army at the moment (early teutonic knights) and will have my first learning game at nov.15th.

Since most of the guys playing FoG here field one medieval and one ancient army Im looking for an ancient project after my knights are finished.

I would like to field (because for me they are typical acient troops) pikes, elephants, some archers and maybe chariots. And dont like to field much cav. because the teutonic knights are almost complete mounted.
The Indo-Greeks seem to have them all.

Early Successor would probably be the better choice. But they are allready played by someone else. The other guys have classical greek, principate roman, carthage, later jewish, syracusan, mid republican roman.

So how should the army look like? All elephants, all pikes some LH and/or skirmisher and the remainder of the points taken as archers?

Or should I look for another type of army? (with my wanted troop types available)

thx again

[batesmotel]

How big are the games you're going to play? At 800 points I think you'll find that you run out of good stuff with the Indo-Greek and end up with more MF Indian archers than you can usefully use. The Graeco-Bactrians will give you more good troops at 800 points and don't have to be taken with a heavy mounted arm although that is one of their biggest strengths whether as cavalry lancers or as cataphracts. You might want to consider the Later Seleucids from Rise of Rome. They have all the troop types you list and can get all of them, except cataphracts and cavalry lancers in larger quantities than the Indo-Greeks and the Graeco-Bactrians and certainly do not have to rely primarily on their mounted to win.

Chris

[grahambriggs]

You might want to look at later selukid in the rise of rome book. It's a historical opponent for many of the armies you list and is better than Indo greek in my opinion. It has a huge array of troop types - pikes, elephants, scythed chariots, bowmen, camels and so on. In fact a difficulty with the army can be working out exactly what to take!

I've done well this year with this L Seluekid army:

4 TCs
2x 6 LF poor sling
8 Mob poor no weapons
4 LH poor Lt Spear, Javelin
12 average pike HF
2x8 superior pike HF
2x2 Scythed Chariots
3x4 superior drilled cataphract lancers/Sword
2x2 Elephants

There isn't much that can take it on frontally and if your mates don't play much you'll find a lot of them WILL take it on frontally

If you stick with the indo greeks, I'd suggest max pikes and elephants, some skirmishers. I can't remember what other non archers troops you can get but you need to be a bit careful not to have more than, say 32 bases of archers otherwise whatever is good against archers will find it easy to punch holes because there'll be so many targets.

[oberKGBler]

Ooooh, ok you got me with that one.

So later seleucid it is! I already changed the topic title.

Ok, so I got the next Problem with getting everything I like (and maybe camels ) into a list.

We usually play with 800 points. 600 points is only for girls which dont get their stuff ready. (like me )


grahambriggs may I ask you some things about your list.

are those 4 TCs needed?
which part is each of them taking?

why slinger BGs of sixes? to better screen your main battle line?

the 12 average pikes flanked by the superior pikes is your center right?

the mob defends your base?

Whats your usual battleplan?

[grahambriggs]

grahambriggs may I ask you some things about your list.

are those 4 TCs needed?
which part is each of them taking?

why slinger BGs of sixes? to better screen your main battle line?

the 12 average pikes flanked by the superior pikes is your center right?

the mob defends your base?

Whats your usual battleplan?

Yep this list is 800. Let's assume we've lost the initiative. The mob sit at the back and do nothing. The LH (initially with a general atteched) scoot forward to slow the enemy flank down (as this army is really narrow). The LF scoot forward with another general in the first bounds to pin the enemy back so the main line can come up. Never get the skirmishers tangled up with the enemy. The poor troops are all minimum size because that was the only way to fit in all the power troops and the generals. You need four units of them because otherwise the army doesn't have enough attrition points.

Yes you need all 4 generals.

While two generals do that, the other two are shoving the other troops forward. After bound 1, the generals that moved the skirmishers forward drop back to help with moving the real troops. Since there are 8 power units (I don't really count the chariots they're a bit weak) there are a lot of jobs for generals.

The proper units are based on a nice simple principle: hit the enemy on the nose with better troops and you'll go through quickly. And put all the best ones together so they go through quickly. And chuck lots of generals into combat where you have an advantage to make it even better. In this context "better" means impact and/or melee, particularly the latter. What you're looking to do is force lots of cohesion test at -2 or -3. Get enough of those and you'll break through. So that depends on the enemy:

Vs roman impact foot sword types I'd deploy pike, elephants and cats all together with the sup pike together and next to the elephants. That gives you a 17 base width that will be stronger than his.

vs greeks or syracusans the pikes and elephants should be good but the cats don't like a frontal charge. But they are good against anything but hops so they can force the enemy to spread out the hoplites or risk an outflanking. The chariots can do similar.

Carthaginians and Jewish tend to not have enough good melee foot So you'll often find they've got, say, some superior armoured spear that will be strong but other parts of their line will be average protected foot - impact or MF offesive spear, etc. They aren't really tough enough to take you on.

The most important thing with the army is to work out how to get your uber tough centre chewing on the enemy well before any enemy flank forces can take effect. That means good use of skirmishers, sacrificial scythed chariots or the odd unit of cats sacrificed to slow the flanking forces down.

[Fluffy]

First up, if you're looking for an ancient army for the sake of playing an ancient army; go with whatever interests you (e.g. if you like Sun Tzu, Warring States is interesting).
Most of the armies associated with empires were well organised and can be made to work.

Keep in mind that Seleucid present a good opportunity to experiment and can "morph" into most Hellenistic or Indian armies, while playing Seleucids try troops and consider related armies.

I take a slightly different approach to Seleucids (which is my ancient army of choice, because the cultural overlaps make it interesting).

I have a mounted and an infantry wing of 3 BG's each that can operate independently, with 2 BG of elephants and some skirmishers.
The plan is to attack with one wing and the elephants (which can run with either), support with the other and skirmish elsewhere.

The draw to this approach is that it makes games interesting, because you have to be clever and it is quite easy to get wrong (i.e. I like it because it makes fun games), very effective if you pull it off though.

What works most easily is to pick one "toy" (probably pike or cats) you like and go big, then fill out with whatever plays support roles you need and filler (poor slings).