GCE '45 - Goldap bonus SE Bf109k. What?

[Kamerer]

I am playing 1.21 and up to '45 (played much with the beta). In Goldap, I got a bonus/reinforcement unit, an SE Bf109k, a+4, d+4, mv+1.

I never reacall seeing that before, or SE units with such bonsues in the GGE before. Was this something that required a special trigger, or what? Very baffled. I searched for it but could not find a mention of it before in the forum.

BTW, 1.21, GCE '44/'45, Rommel difficulty, and the softcap = really hard.

[ThvN]

Hello Kamerer, this 'Wilhelm Batz' hero (that's him, right?) was added when they updated the GC's for the MegaPack release, see the changelog: viewtopic.php?f=125&t=41588&p=391972.

No special trigger needed, unless you are like me and consider surviving until the fourth turn on such difficulty levels to be quite a challenge.

So far, I struggled my way into 1943, where the softcap started to hammer my quasi-nod-to-historical-accuracy core into a more, errm, 'compact' shape, so you have my respect for your achievement!

[Kamerer]

Thanks for the explanation because I missed that, I was like, "did a bug from GCW creep in? Isn't this a Monte Cassino unit?"

The soft cap and the grand campaign work very badly together; I mentioned that I suspected that in the 1.21 Beta but now I am feeling it for real. They work fine up until '43 but then crush you. The problem is GCE requires you to build a large corps of experienced units, rotate many through combat so when you hit '45 you have a "deep bench." Can't do that without serious penalty now. My KV-85 "back bench" which I normally take into Berlin at top strength and heroes, I can't get experienced. They are all 300 and that won't work in Berlin. I have to always field my top units, use green replacements on them, repeat.

I am up to Poznan, I am deploying with 3,650 pp in reserve. Everything is 10 strength, a few arty units are 11, my two SE Gj infantry are 12 and I have been fielding them there consistently. I haven't deployed a non-SE infantry unit since Warsaw I don't think, and I've disbanded quite a few wonderful units because of the cap. I am also finding the artillery effect to be marginal. Weak enemy units do damage out of all respect to their real combat potential. Granted their are major changes to mechanics that allow such units as I have to do well, but it feels so "gamey" now and not realistic, or at least what we were used to. It also feels weird that I now do better with many more exotic units in my corps than before.

I am finding to survive in 1.21 I need a much more a-historical Corps. I have got to Berlin before with Pz.IVJ's, two Me-262's and Three FW-190As (saw one fly last month actually! Against an IL-2! amazing!). To live and win, I now have to have more King Tigers, Me-262's, more armour and less infantry. Artillery mix is about the same, though much less effective.

I am getting mostly DV's (most all), but then I know the game and tactics well. But it is still hard, and I have to fight with an even less historical corps. I think Berlin might be winnable, but I really doubt Redux will be. If the AI was not very mediocre/borderline incompetent, I'd be dead meat.

Granted I am playing on Rommel, but still a vast majority of people are going to find this a crush on the game. I won't play GCE w/1.21 rules again, and I hate it we know have to tailor rules to different expansions.

[Tarrak]

Firstly soft cap is not affected by the units in reserve at all. It only takes the units deployed in the scenario into account so the effect you are describing can't be created by the soft cap.

Secondly you complain about the AI being to weak and at same time about the game being to difficult for you at one of the possibly most difficult difficulty levels. How about if you can't beat the game at this level anymore you go back to field marshal now or even lower if needed and suddenly the game starts to be playable again. I really don't understand how you can at same time complain about the game being to easy but then not wanting to use a new rule set that makes it harder anymore?

[Kamerer]

Firstly soft cap is not affected by the units in reserve at all. It only takes the units deployed in the scenario into account so the effect you are describing can't be created by the soft cap.

Oh hell yes it is. I don't think you understand the soft cap. It is not affected by the SE units, but it is absolutely dependent upon all units in your corps above those allocated as deployment slots in a scenario (aka, "reserve.") Rudankort and I discussed this in beta and I've seen nothing in practice or effect that shows it is different. I don't feel I am owed a personal email from a developer if there is a design change. But that is the fact, Jack (Bill Murray slaps his rifle but down here).

Secondly you complain about the AI being to weak and at same time about the game being to difficult for you at one of the possibly most difficult difficulty levels. How about if you can't beat the game at this level anymore you go back to field marshal now or even lower if needed and suddenly the game starts to be playable again. I really don't understand how you can at same time complain about the game being to easy but then not wanting to use a new rule set that makes it harder anymore?

I suggest you go back and read my comments for context and comment. Then think about it and come back with a more intelligent response. You really don't seem to get them at all, or understand the interplay of the AI, rule packs, and pre-established scenario rigidity.

I also have to say one thing I like about this forum is people generally are polite and think about what they contribute before spouting off and being hostile. You seem to have neither of those creditable human attributes.

I have to say it also shocks the sh@!t out of me you wear the moniker of "moderator". You seem to have none of the attributes it takes to be one. Namely I feel, characteristics of a good moderator of any situation, forum, or corporate organization (of this is three of the three I listed):

1) A deep knowledge of the game at all levels,
2) A respect for comments so as to encourage participation in it,
3) Simple good manners.

I regret the forum itself does not value that, but, in a phrase I hate, "it is what it is."

[Tarrak]

Firstly soft cap is not affected by the units in reserve at all. It only takes the units deployed in the scenario into account so the effect you are describing can't be created by the soft cap.

Oh hell yes it is. I don't think you understand the soft cap.

No i am afraid you are wrong here. Check this link here. Rudankort explains here how exactly prestige soft cap works. Especially this part is of significance:

- Player's prestige is calculated as follows. For each core unit its cost is UnitCost+TransportCost, adjusted to unit's strength. So, a normal 10-strength unit at full OS is 1.5 of its normal cost. Unspent prestige and units in reserve are not counted. This means that the game allows to accumulate more prestige if it remains "passive" (does not actively participate in the battles). Bonus units are not taken into account at all.

Secondly you complain about the AI being to weak and at same time about the game being to difficult for you at one of the possibly most difficult difficulty levels. How about if you can't beat the game at this level anymore you go back to field marshal now or even lower if needed and suddenly the game starts to be playable again. I really don't understand how you can at same time complain about the game being to easy but then not wanting to use a new rule set that makes it harder anymore?

I suggest you go back and read my comments for context and comment. Then think about it and come back with a more intelligent response. You really don't seem to get them at all, or understand the interplay of the AI, rule packs, and pre-established scenario rigidity.

I also have to say one thing I like about this forum is people generally are polite and think about what they contribute before spouting off and being hostile. You seem to have neither of those creditable human attributes.

I have to say it also shocks the sh@!t out of me you wear the moniker of "moderator". You seem to have none of the attributes it takes to be one. Namely I feel, characteristics of a good moderator of any situation, forum, or corporate organization (of this is three of the three I listed):

I re-read what i wrote and i still don't think it comes over hostile. If it did to you it wasn't meant that way and i appologise. All i am doing is just wondering why people, not only you but you are are included, keep complaining at some time about weak AI (which partially is making grave mistakes i agree) and the game being to easy in general but then refuse to use means to make it harder. The rest of the post are just personal attacks on me which i just chose not to comment.

1) A deep knowledge of the game at all levels,
2) A respect for comments so as to encourage participation in it,
3) Simple good manners.

I regret the forum itself does not value that, but, in a phrase I hate, "it is what it is."

Well i am afraid i have proven your point 1 is clearly wrong as i am right about the prestige soft cap in regards to units in reserve. As to point 2 it seems anyone that disagrees with you is not respecting you .. well in that case it's really difficult and pointless to have any discussion at all beside agreeing with you. As to point 3 ... if my post was offensive well what is yours?

Anyway you are free to complain about me to the board administration and demand to get my moderator status revoked if you like.

[Kamerer]

Oh god so many things wrong here.

You sent a link about the soft cap proposed in 1.20. Find the facts on 1.21.

You have left the (easily) rebuttal presumption you do not understand the different rule packs. Much less be able to carefully discuss how they impact different DLC's.

Personal nonsensical insults aside, in my mind, please try harder to be a Moderator? Find the right facts, be polite. Tactful. Perhaps these are foreign words to you; it is a multi-national forum.

[Tarrak]

Oh god so many things wrong here.

You sent a link about the soft cap proposed in 1.20. Find the facts on 1.21.

Personal nonsensical insults aside, to me, please try harder to be a Moderator? Find the right facts, not be a superior douchebag?

This is the final version of the 1.20 soft cap. There was no further changes to it in beta. According to the patch notes for 1.21 you can see here there was no changes to the soft cap involved in 1.21. Unless you post me something to back up your claims i am assuming i am right here.

[Kamerer]

You, and the horse you rode in on:

Here is from a private email with him on how soft cap is calculated:

You have 25 slots in this scen, so normal core value is 10000 (25*400) and max value is 20000 (25*800). The combined value of your core is around 14000, because of all the expensive planes, and also because of 4 extra core units in the reserve (these are calculated with 0.5 coefficient, but still they contribute to the end result).

Reserve counts 0.50 against soft cap. It counts.

Unless you post me something to back up your claims i am assuming i am right here.

A certain subset of people tend to do that, instead of collecting facts collaboratively, checking facts again, and making definitive public assertions.

[Tarrak]

You, and the horse you rode in on:

Here's from a private email with him on how soft cap is calculated:

You have 25 slots in this scen, so normal core value is 10000 (25*400) and max value is 20000 (25*800). The combined value of your core is around 14000, because of all the expensive planes, and also because of 4 extra core units in the reserve (these are calculated with 0.5 coefficient, but still they contribute to the end result).

Reserve counts 0.50 against soft cap. It counts.

Can you tell me please when was this posted or mailed to you? This sounds to me like the pre beta 4 version of prestige cap where it actually really did include the unspent prestige and units in reserve. See again the beta topic for reference especially this:

- Soft cap rules were changed a bit. It no longer calculates unspent prestige and units in reserve at all.

[Kamerer]

Nice try. You might be an academic somewhere with that sophistry. Do your own homework. You said it never happened.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to respond in kind with your sillyness and combativeness. But there it is. I am tired and it is late here. Become more polite so we can continue this tomorrow.

[Tarrak]

Nice try. Do your own homework.

OK i really give up trying to have any civilized discussion with you. I am backing my opinion with facts and links while you are just abusing me and claiming you are right without delivering any facts and not even remotely considering the possibility you may be wrong as well. The strategy to say "I am right because i say it is so" usually stops working around the time you leave Kindergarden.

[Kamerer]

Nice try. Do your own homework.

OK i really give up trying to have any civilized discussion with you. I am backing my opinion with facts and links while you are just abusing me and claiming you are right without delivering any facts and not even remotely considering the possibility you may be wrong as well. The strategy to say "I am right because i say it is so" usually stops working around the time you leave Kindergarden.

Read what Rudankort said and come back with a reason it changed. Ask him ffs? Be adult? Be polite?

OK i really give up trying to have any civilized discussion with you.

Again, the sophistry. You have seen the ways the rule was laid down, and we see it in practice. If YOU have something to challenge it, please show it. Why this nonsensical dance around the observable facts, and the given facts from the devs? If it has been changed, I'd like to know. I don't see it in the game, I've played it. You can't show it, you just advance ad hominem attacks.

If you want to be a "Moderator" - then moderate. Find the facts, dispense them. Don't be an attack dog for no reason.

[Tarrak]

Nice try. Do your own homework.

OK i really give up trying to have any civilized discussion with you. I am backing my opinion with facts and links while you are just abusing me and claiming you are right without delivering any facts and not even remotely considering the possibility you may be wrong as well. The strategy to say "I am right because i say it is so" usually stops working around the time you leave Kindergarden.

Read what Rudankort said and come back with a reason it changed.

I am REALLY trying to. Sadly all i can find from him is backing up my position. If you have any links for me to read please post them as i am unable to find them.

Ask him ffs? Be adult? Be polite?

Yes asking Rudankort may be the last option. I was keeping that until last option tho as he is probably very busy atm with the PC IPad beta and i didn't want to disturb him. As to being adult and polite this goes right back to you. Take a breath, reread the thread and check how many insults you are throwing at me and how often did i insult you?

[Kamerer]

Yes asking Rudankort may be the last option.

Uh, I did. That is what Alex said. You didn't bother to check before arguing?

Good night.

Also, It's DEEPLY worth noting. I replied to ThvN's comment to be both critical and constructive. Things that worked in recent betas and not retroactively. I got specific, because it benefits many of us. Also as a lesson to future dev. The whole idea was to have a CONstructive dialoge. It really, sorely, sadly upsets me that me trying to convey some valid, new experiences got shat on by ego instead of being a constructive learning thread for new players, less experienced players, devs, whoever wanted to read. I really thought I was adding valued comment by taking 1.21 from '39 to '45 but clearly that is NOT welcome. As Steve Martin famously said years ago, WELL, EXCUUUUSE ME! Ok, just kidding, I know what I was trying to do was helpful. But why the flak along the way?

I am sad what I thought I started as a learning experience for the community became an ego pissing match for Moderators who don't know the platform. This forum is better than that and I want and hope all other readers keep that in mind.

[VPaulus]

I have asked Alex to take a look at this issue.

@Kamerer
Personally, I haven't seen anything in Tarrak's post that could justify your personal attack on his ability of being a moderator. He, like ThVn, has been a great moderator and I personally, and I'm sure the whole community, have appreciated his efforts and ability in moderating and helping other people.

@All
Please no more personal attacks or off-topic posts. I will delete any further off-topic post.
Gentleman, please... let's stay on topic.

[robman]

Gentlemen! Please! I'm quite sure that neither of you intended for this thread to get out of hand. Let us shake hands and move on.

I am VERY interested to know whether (and how) reserves are counted toward the soft cap in 1.21. Replaying the GC on 1.21 is on my "to do" list, and the answer to this question will fundamentally affect the way I play. I too was under the impression that reserves did not count toward the soft cap--I remember Rudankort's original explanation of the dynamics, cited above--but it appears that the final implementation may have been quite different. Can we get a final, official word on the subject, or can someone more clever than I devise an easy experiment to test the effect of reserves on the soft cap?

[Rudankort]

Hello All!

First, about the soft cap. I have checked the code to make sure, and in the released 1.21 neither units in reserve, nor unspent prestige contribute to soft cap calculations. They used to be counted with 0.5 coefficient. In fact, that saved game from Kamerer which I checked and explained to him in the email which he quoted above was one of the reasons why I reconsidered this rule. The goal of soft cap is to limit player's active core force, to prompt him to win battles with as few resources as possible. Not to limit player's wealth. This means that it is possible to accumulate more prestige by winning easier battles with limited force and filling all slots with the best units only in harder scenarios.

Second, about this:

Granted I am playing on Rommel, but still a vast majority of people are going to find this a crush on the game. I won't play GCE w/1.21 rules again, and I hate it we know have to tailor rules to different expansions.

Fragmentation of game rules was always my concern. But also, I saw a lot of demand from players to update the rules and fix certain fundamental issues in the gameplay. For example, the soft cap is intended to fix the problem of prestige snowballing. New experience rules are supposed to fix the problem with certain classes (like infantry) not benefiting enough from their stars. Changes to artillery were made because many people considered this class too powerful in single player mode. "Replacements come suppressed" rule prevent the situation when two units can fight indefinitely in "attack - retreat - replace" fashion. Etc. I thought it was not fair to players to put off the solution of these problems till a proper sequel to PzC, because I have no idea when that will come and if it will come at all.

So yeah, in 1.20 I tried to fix those long-running issues. I wanted the changes to work well with existing content, and for this reason many questionable experiments from the beta did not make into release. At the same time I understood that we cannot possibly check everything in the beta, however long it is, and some of existing content might still break. So, I took all precautions I possibly could:
- Old rules are readily available as a UI option.
- If any difficulty levels, like Rommel or Manstein, are no longer feasible with new rules, but you don't want to revert to Field Marshal, you can use custom difficuty settings to fine-tune the difficulty to your taste.
- If you get into trouble at a later stage of a campaign, you can fix this by altering difficulty on the fly - no need to start from scratch.

Now that several months passed since 1.20 and Allied Corps, it would be interesting to hear people's opinion about weather the changes in 1.20 worked or not. But this is probably a topic for another thread, not this one.

Third and last, guys, please try to avoid any personal attacks. Let's discuss the game, not forum members. Thanks!

Alex

[Tarrak]

Thank you for answering Alex. So as i was right and the units in reserve do not count towards the prestige soft cap so it can't be the cause of the problems Kamerer is describing.

I personally do not think as well that the fact that a few people, can't finish the game anymore on a special and extra difficult setting like Rommel is breaking the game. Just go down a notch in difficulty and the game will be again playable perfectly. To be honest i don't even think the game would be broken if no one at all could finish the game anymore on Rommel as long as it's perfectly possible to play on lower difficulties.