The First Promotion?

[spedius01]

Ave,

Something that has puzzled me from the very first time I was faced with the decision, which to choose?
I'm talking about your very first promotion.

I'd like to illustrate my point with a little chart, as follows:-

1. Block - Universal except for Peasants, Militia & Skirmishers
2. Dodge - Universal except for Elephants
3. Endure - Universal except for Elephants
4. Swordsman/Marksman - Universal except for Spearmen & Triarii
5. Missile Protection - Universal except for Peasants, Militia & Skirmishers
6. Junior NCOs - Universal except for Legate

These seven, in one sequence or another, appear to be the most common first promotion choice that you are faced
with. There you sit, looking at the tool tips, rubbing your chin, or whatever mannerism you've adopted to indicate deep thought, weighing up the pros and cons of each. If you choose Block you may be faced with missile fire, so do you choose Missile Protection? No, I'm an agressive player I want to attack, I want to choose swordsman/marksman!
These and many more thoughts flood through your mind. The consequences of your first choice could be quite damaging to your chances of getting through the first few battles relatively unscathed.

So, what do you do? Which do you choose? If you have a reasoned answer post a reply. Alternatively, if you would like to vote in the poll, please do.

Vale

M.Spedius Corbulo

[warmaster]

I usually start with endurance and block, then follow up with swordsman and amour penetration.

[spedius01]

I usually start with endurance and block, then follow up with swordsman and amour penetration.

Ave warmaster,

I tend to vasilate between swordsman and missile protection, and after a lot of chin stroking, finally choose missile protection. I'm not too sure it's the best choice, but probably the safest.

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo

[sum1won]

It depends. For heavy infantry, endurance/block seems most valuable, as the extrqa HP are much more valuable as the armor reduces damage. For light infantry who will take massive damage from any hit, block and endurance wont help as much, so I choose agility. I generally try to have advanced agility on most units though, as it is useful for anyone. I definitely get swordsman, as they really need it, and the troops intended for sustained combat get Junior NCO.

[venividivici]

I tend towards the offensive from the start and with all units being pretty weak in the first 10 scenarios I choose Swordsman first then Endurance. I pretty much keep the offensive stats increasing all the time and have never used Dodge, Feint or Block (possibly a mistake on Very Hard level). After the initial group of promotions I always upgrade the anti-infantry/cavalry capabilities and the weapons handling upgrades (marksman/targeting/swordsman and trample for cav etc). My general gets an initial swordsman and endurance boost then all other upgrades relate to command/order abilities.

[ehre]

I go for the NCOs first, ive never seen a squad lose more than 7-10 men before they are routed. After NCO, i go endurance, once those are buffed up, i make the squad become anti calv, anti inf or anti eleph

[spedius01]

Ave warmaster, sum1wun, venividivici and ehre,

Thanx for your input guys, most helpful.

It's always interesting and educational to read other 's views on a subject that I feel is crucial to the success or failure of any aspiring Scipio Africanus, Julius Ceasar or another Hannibal!

Has anyone read "Scipio Africanus - Greater Than Napoleon " by B.H. Liddell Hart, first published in 1926? He writes "The art of generalship does not age , and it is because Scipio's battles are richer in stratagems and ruses - many still feasible today - than those of any other commander in history that they are an unfailing object-lesson." In all of the years Scipio was in command of a Roman army he never, ever lost a battle unlike Hannibal who lost just one, Zama!

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo

NB. B.H. Liddell Hart also wrote a visionary book on tank tactics, Guderian read and used the ideas during WWII!!!!

[honvedseg]

For any melee unit, I go for "Sworsman" as a first upgrade. The best defense is usually a good offense, and you don't get experience points unless you take out the enemy. In the early scenarios, nobody has decent armor or defensive abilities, so that +3 modifier to hit insures that you will inflict damage more frequently. This applies to the Legate as well, since he really needs to get a few good shots in himself in order to advance. Endurance and the assorted specialties follow for the regular troops, and various command skills go to the officer.

[spedius01]

For any melee unit, I go for "Swordsman" as a first upgrade. The best defense is usually a good offense, and you don't get experience points unless you take out the enemy. In the early scenarios, nobody has decent armor or defensive abilities, so that +3 modifier to hit insures that you will inflict damage more frequently. This applies to the Legate as well, since he really needs to get a few good shots in himself in order to advance. Endurance and the assorted specialties follow for the regular troops, and various command skills go to the officer.

Ave honvedseg,

Thank you for your well reasoned contribution.

It would appear that most people seem to share the philosophical approach of "the faster I kill them the fewer there are to kill me", school of thought. The more you kill in each engagement boosts your xp. But not always, it all depends on troop types, a legionary unit wiping out a bunch of peasants gets little or no xp. Whereas a peasant unit wiping out a bunch of legionaries would get massive xp, if such a thing is possible! I had a unit of Auxilia kill 75 enemy, two militia and one unit of skirmishers, it was rewarded with only 23 xp! I had hoped to be able to reward my Auxilia with the "Disciplined Formations" promotion option on that scenario, but couldn't!

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo

[*Lava*]

.

It would appear that most people seem to share the philosophic approach of "the faster I kill them the fewer there are to kill me", school of thought.

Indeed, I do the same.

But I think that comes from the game itself basically forcing you to be able to deal with enemies in short order. Those battles where you have only so much time to win (with minimum losses), is the driving force.

Appears to me, you have to have a hardcore group of units which can be counted on to win those battles. Once you can get those into your army, the advantage becomes yours.

Ray (alias Lava)

[honvedseg]

Actually, as far as I'm concerned, the first promotions you make in your army don't count for much of anything. I have no intention of keeping most of the starting troops, but it isn't until after the second battle that you get any funds to improve the mix, and those aren't enough to do much of anything for another battle or two. In fact, it doesn't even pay to disband your starting forces right away to get better units, because they (or your Legate) won't even get XP for fighting the lowly peasant forces arrayed against you in the first battle or two. At least the militia unit can eventually be given anti-elephant skills for special situations later in the game, since the 50 Denarii cost of the unit makes it hardly worth disbanding.

[spedius01]

.

It would appear that most people seem to share the philosophic approach of "the faster I kill them the fewer there are to kill me", school of thought.

Indeed, I do the same.

But I think that comes from the game itself basically forcing you to be able to deal with enemies in short order. Those battles where you have only so much time to win (with minimum losses), is the driving force.

Appears to me, you have to have a hardcore group of units which can be counted on to win those battles. Once you can get those into your army, the advantage becomes yours.

Ray (alias Lava)

Ave Ray (alias Lava)

I agree with most of what you write but am curious about the following:

Which of the seventeen troop types available for you to recruit would you consider to be "a hardcore group of units which can be counted on to win those battles"?

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo

[spedius01]

Actually, as far as I'm concerned, the first promotions you make in your army don't count for much of anything. I have no intention of keeping most of the starting troops, but it isn't until after the second battle that you get any funds to improve the mix, and those aren't enough to do much of anything for another battle or two. In fact, it doesn't even pay to disband your starting forces right away to get better units, because they (or your Legate) won't even get XP for fighting the lowly peasant forces arrayed against you in the first battle or two. At least the militia unit can eventually be given anti-elephant skills for special situations later in the game, since the 50 Denarii cost of the unit makes it hardly worth disbanding.

Ave honvedseg,

I would agree with the sentiments expressed above but for several items which may be worth considering.

In my view, and you have endorsed this, each scenario is an exercise for both you and your troops to gain knowledge and experience about your and their capabilities. Let me cite you some examples from some games I fought recently.

NB. kills/losses/xp

Battle #01
Legate - 4/0/0 Level 1
Scout 1 - 34/0/206 level 2
Scout 2 - 31/0/188 Level 2
Enemy = 192 Romans = 49

Battle #02
Legate - 5/0/9 Level 2
Scout 1 - 46/0/504 Level 3
Scout 2 - 36/0/387 Level 3
Enemy = 144 Romans = 49

Battle #03
Legate - 10/0/0 Level 2
Scout 1 - 63/1/234 Level 4
Scout 2 - 72/4/234 Level 4
Enemy = 384 Romans = 49

Battle #04
Legate - 0/0/0 Level 2
Scout 1 - 57/1/424 Level 5
Scout 2 - 35/1/265 Level 4
Enemy = 216 Romans = 49

Battle #05
Legate - 7/0/74 Level 3
Scout 1 - 23/1/461 Level 6
Scout 2 - 31/0/715 Level 6
Auxilia 1 - 30/3/477 Level 3
Enemy = 192 Romans = 97

Battle #06
Legate - 0/0/0 Level 3
Scout 1 - 36/0/37 Level 6
Scout 2 - 51/0/218 Level 6
Auxilia 1 - 121/4/649 Level 4
Enemy = 432 Romans = 97

Battle #07
Legate - 15/1/165 Level 6
Scout 1 - 36/2/1038 Level 7
Scout 2 - 0/0/0 Level 6
Auxilia 1 75/2/23 Level 4
Enemy = 265 Romans = 97

Legate - xp = 248 Level 6
Scout 1 - xp = 2904 Level 7
Scout 2 - xp = 2007 Level 6
Auxilia 1 - xp = 1149 Level 4

I'll be fighting #08 tonight, and would hope to continue my winning ways.

What the above is supposed to illustrate is that you can successfully negotiate the first few scenarios with very few troops in your army. All three will be part of my "Final Army".

I will look forward, with interest, to reading about your exploits.

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo

[honvedseg]

Note that the Auxilia wasn't added until the 5th battle. As a green unit, it managed to inflict roughly as many casualties as the more experienced units. By the 7th battle, it had caused 2/3 of the casuaties of the entire army. I can't see keeping the other units hanging around when the opposition will eventually be fielding troops as powerful, or more so, than your Auxilia. A unit or two of Auxiliary Cavalry will quickly supersede my Scouts, and the militia will probably be held in reserve as a specialist anti-elephant unit or similar. The sooner I can begin feeding XP to the more powerful troop types, the better. A couple of units of Auxilia will be useful in broken terrain even in the later stages of the game, so I'd make them a priority addition by Battle 4 or 5, and follow with an ala of auxiliary heavy cavalry as soon as I can spare the 500 Denarii.

[*Lava*]

Which of the seventeen troop types available for you to recruit would you consider to be "a hardcore group of units which can be counted on to win those battles"?

I would say just about any of the types could be used to form a hardcore group of veterans you could rely on in difficult battles (although I haven't tried it). Personally, I use Hastati and Principes, as any good Republican Roman Legate would.



Ray (alias Lava)

[spedius01]

Note that the Auxilia wasn't added until the 5th battle. As a green unit, it managed to inflict roughly as many casualties as the more experienced units. By the 7th battle, it had caused 2/3 of the casuaties of the entire army. I can't see keeping the other units hanging around when the opposition will eventually be fielding troops as powerful, or more so, than your Auxilia. A unit or two of Auxiliary Cavalry will quickly supersede my Scouts, and the militia will probably be held in reserve as a specialist anti-elephant unit or similar. The sooner I can begin feeding XP to the more powerful troop types, the better. A couple of units of Auxilia will be useful in broken terrain even in the later stages of the game, so I'd make them a priority addition by Battle 4 or 5, and follow with an ala of auxiliary heavy cavalry as soon as I can spare the 500 Denarii.

Ave honvedseg,

All you say is most reasonable and makes a lot of sense, I can't fault your logic. However, if I may, allow me to point out a few salient points which you may be unaware of. If you accept the preposition that the object of the exercise is to arrive at the conclusion of the Roman campaign with a major proportion of the fame earned intact? If you'll also accept an old piece of common sense, namely "you can't spend what you haven't got"? Ultimately, everything comes down to fame and money. Fame is what you want, money is how you get it! Another one of my progressions: troops earn money, money buys more troops, troops earn fame. Let me further illustrate my point with yet another chart:

#-Fame-Denari-Total of Denari
01-500-0-0
02-500-75-75
03-500-75-150
04-500-115-265
05-625-115-380
06-625-115-495
07-625-150-645
08-625-150-795
09-625-150-945
10-750-190-1135
11-750-190-1325
12-750-190-1515
13-750-190-1705
14-875-225-1930
15-875-225-2155
16-875-225-2380
17-875-225-2605
18-1000-250-2855
19-1000-250-3105
20-1000-250-3355
21-1000-250-3605
22-1000-250-3855
23-1250-300-4155
24-1250-300-4455
25-1250-300-4755
26-1500-350-5105
27-1500-350-5455
28-1500-350-5805
29-1500-350-6155
30-1500-350-6505
31-1500-350-6855
32-1750-375-7230

Total Fame = 31,125

Some of the points you raised, as you can now see, were not yet possible, due to the severe lack of funds. I couldn't recruit the Auxilia any sooner, not and still have the two units of Scouts.

Armed with the information contained in the chart you can plan an army. You don't yet know the armies you will have to face or the terrain on which to fight them. The fame total gives you a target to aim for.

I do hope the above will prove to be useful to you and your quest for fame and glory.

Vale

M. Spedius Corbulo

PS. You are aware that the Auxilia is/are one of the four units with the Anti-Elephant Specialist skill?

[honvedseg]

Oddly enough, I had recruited a second unit of Scouts after around the third battle, but disbanded them and the Skirmishers as soon as I had the few additional Denarii to afford the century of Auxilia: 150 for the Scouts, 100 for the skirmishers, and adding another 50 gives you the 300 Denarii price tag of an Auxilia unit. That gave me a force of 1 Legate, 1 militia, 1 Scout, and 1 Auxilia. After gaining a level or two, the Aux will single-handedly shred most of the opposing armies on the Easy setting at this early stage of the game. I'm starting to take a lot more casualties among the militia than either the scouts or the auxilia, even though they're up to Level 10, and getting the easier roles as the other units surpass them. For their mere 50 Denarii price tag, I'll hang onto them as a reserve, but I think I would have been better off putting the money towards getting a stronger unit earlier. I hate it when I've got 5 Denarii less than what I need to buy a decent unit.

Next permanent additions were an Aux Cav, then a Principes century. While I'm waiting to save up enough for a unit, I use the existing funds to pick up an extra skirmisher, militia, or scout group for the next battle, then disband them after the battle to recover the funds to buy the more powerful one. If you disband them before replacing losses, you get the full cost of the unit, and don't take the fame hit for their casualties. Of course, you lose any experience they may have gained, but they're still handy for charging enemy skirmishers or pinning a unit in place until your veteran troops are free to intervene.

BTW - I'm very aware of the Anti-elephant skill, and the limited selection of units which can get it; that was one of my many reasons for picking up the Auxilia early on.

[honvedseg]

After playing the Roman campaign through to the end on HARD, I decided to write down all of the starting stats of the various units for comparison purposes. Having done so, a number of things became readily apparent that I hadn't even considered before.

After the near-mandatory "Swordsman" upgrade to give them some chance of actually hitting the opponents (your Legate has a high enough starting number already, so you might want to give him other promotions first), the next would either be "Block" or "Feint" to raise either their armor or melee damage stats. Some units begin with enough armor so that a few extra points makes them nearly indestructable by lesser types, aside from that 1 point of "Concussion" damage. For units with a high enough damage potential, raising that even slightly allows them to do normal damage to even the best armored opponents. For units with a low damage potential, giving them "Armor Penetration" will allow them to at least hurt units that they would otherwise be unable to damage.

I could see training up a huge militia waveof 20 units with "Armor Penetration", with nothing invested in weaponry at all. Normal damage potential would be close to nil, but you'd have an armor killer force for less cost than a single Praetorian unit. It's a pity about that 20 unit limit...