Kiel

[ravenflight]

Hi All,

I'm sure I've got this right, but just want clarification.

With regards to Keils, let's say you have something like the Scottish list from "Trade and Treachery" and run a BG of 16 Pikemen (4 deep, 4 wide).

Firstly, the rate as a Keil (p29) - correct?
Secondly, they get rear support from themselves (p176) - correct?
Third, if they get so badly mauled that they have two files that are 4 deep and another two files that are 3 deep they still count as a keil, because they have "at least 2 files 4 bases deep" (again, p29) - correct?
Fourth, if they take another casualty from the above they cease to be a Keil (again, p29), because they would be 1 file 4 ranks deep and 3 files 3 ranks deep - correct?
Fifth, if they contract, do the re-establish keildom?

I think I'm correct in all of the above, but not entirely sure.

I'd probably not run them anyway, and if I did not the way I've shown above, but just want to get the facts straight in my head for future reference since I'm hoping to run a comp in October.

[kevinj]

Yes, all of your points are correct.

[ravenflight]

Yes, all of your points are correct.

Excellent. Thanks Kevin.

[Vespasian28]

I think you have also successfully explained why the Swiss gave up fighting and became bankers. Far easier to understand financial regulations than remember all the rules for kiels

[grahambriggs]

Indeed. I found that I had to pull them all out into a separate document "Kiel Spiel", as much as anything so I can remember where in the rules things are. "I know it's in here somewhere"

The armoured spear version of that Scottish list is interesting.

[kevinj]

Can I have a copy of your document Graham? It might be very useful for Roll Call!

[Vespasian28]

Can I have a copy of your document Graham?

If at all possible I would find that useful as well, please.

Talking of Armoured Scottish pike I am about to run into them tomorrow with Early Henrician morphed from late WotR armies plus a few interlopers. We are redoing Flodden later this year and wanted to try out the armies under FOGR to see how they go.
I suspect I will be trying to get round the flanks of the Scottish juggernaut before it hits my billmen unless I get lucky with the terrain and can park a huge bog in front of them.

[vexillia]

This summary might help:

With regards to Keils consider a BG of 16 Pikemen (4 deep, 4 wide):

1. It is a Keil because it has "at least two files 4 bases deep" (p29).
2. It gets rear support from itself (p176).
3. After two losses it has two files 4 deep and two files 3 deep so it is still a Keil.
4. After three losses it ceases to be a Keil because it has only one file 4 ranks deep.
5. A depleted, former Keil can contract and reform itself as a Keil.

[grahambriggs]

Can I have a copy of your document Graham? It might be very useful for Roll Call!

sent

[kevinj]

Thanks Graham, that is very comprehensive.

[grahambriggs]

Can I have a copy of your document Graham?

If at all possible I would find that useful as well, please.

PM me your email address

[Vespasian28]

Got it.
Thanks Graham, much appreciated.

[Polkovnik]

Another similar question : when a Kiel is hit in the flank, bases turn per the diagram on page 81. Is it no longer a Kiel as it doesn't have two files of at least four bases ?
Also on the diagram on pg 81, could the Swiss expand one or both of the HW bases from the left file to overlap the Gendarmes at the bottom of the diagram (in their own turn of course, or expand in the opponents turn to match the gendarmes if they expand at the bottom)?

[ravenflight]

Another similar question : when a Kiel is hit in the flank, bases turn per the diagram on page 81. Is it no longer a Kiel as it doesn't have two files of at least four bases ?
Also on the diagram on pg 81, could the Swiss expand one or both of the HW bases from the left file to overlap the Gendarmes at the bottom of the diagram (in their own turn of course, or expand in the opponents turn to match the gendarmes if they expand at the bottom)?

What's the POA's on p81?

Pike at the far left (away from Gendarms) are Swiss 2 dice @ +POA vs 2 dice @ - POA;
2nd file vs Swordsmen 2 dice evens vs 2 dice evens;
Double ranked Gendarms no dice as nobody to fight;
Other two files of Gendarms 4 dice Swiss @ + POA vs 4 dice Gendarms at - POA.

Am I right? If so, bugger me Keils are tough!!!

[ravenflight]

What's the POA's on p81?

Pike at the far left (away from Gendarms) are Swiss 2 dice @ +POA vs 2 dice @ - POA;
2nd file vs Swordsmen 2 dice evens vs 2 dice evens;
Double ranked Gendarms no dice as nobody to fight;
Other two files of Gendarms 4 dice Swiss @ + POA vs 4 dice Gendarms at - POA.

Am I right? If so, bugger me Keils are tough!!!

Can I get a comment on this?

[kevinj]

Yes, I think your POAs are correct.

[daveallen]

What's the POA's on p81?

1 - Pike at the far left (away from Gendarms) vs Swordsmen are Swiss 2 dice @ +POA vs 2 dice @ - POA;
2 - 2nd file vs Swordsmen 2 dice evens vs 2 dice evens;
3 - Double ranked Gendarms no dice as nobody to fight;
4 - Other two files of Gendarms 4 dice Swiss @ + POA vs 4 dice Gendarms at - POA.

Am I right? If so, bugger me Keils are tough!!!

Can I get a comment on this?

I've put numbers in to make it clearer.

1, 2 & 4 are correct.

3 - The central box states that the Gendarmes next to the Swordsmen fight the second rank pike as if it had turned to face them. So they fight at the same factors as the other Gendarmes.

Yes, keils are tough. But if instead of Gendarmes and Swordsmen the Swiss had been fighting Spear in the same configuration they would have had two dice at + and eight at -, against the Spears two at - and eight at +.

Dave

[kevinj]

The central box states that the Gendarmes next to the Swordsmen fight the second rank pike as if it had turned to face them. So they fight at the same factors as the other Gendarmes.

Good spot, although not necessarily for the Gendarmes!

[ravenflight]

What's the POA's on p81?

1 - Pike at the far left (away from Gendarms) vs Swordsmen are Swiss 2 dice @ +POA vs 2 dice @ - POA;
2 - 2nd file vs Swordsmen 2 dice evens vs 2 dice evens;
3 - Double ranked Gendarms no dice as nobody to fight;
4 - Other two files of Gendarms 4 dice Swiss @ + POA vs 4 dice Gendarms at - POA.

Am I right? If so, bugger me Keils are tough!!!

Can I get a comment on this?

I've put numbers in to make it clearer.

1, 2 & 4 are correct.

3 - The central box states that the Gendarmes next to the Swordsmen fight the second rank pike as if it had turned to face them. So they fight at the same factors as the other Gendarmes.

Yes, keils are tough. But if instead of Gendarmes and Swordsmen the Swiss had been fighting Spear in the same configuration they would have had two dice at + and eight at -, against the Spears two at - and eight at +.

Dave

Right, I get it now.

So I just want to make sure I got the rulings right at MOAB:

Let's assume that the Keil are Swiss Unprotected superior pike.

Lets assume the two lines fighting the Swiss are Superior French Louis XIV P&S with Armoured pike.

Top picture on P81 the Swiss charge frontally but are not intercept charged.

Impact dice are evens, so 4dice superior vs 4dice superior.

Melee the swiss could move 2 halberdiers out to the flank.

Assuming neither side disrupt melee would be:

4 dice at evens (4 ranks pike counteracted by armoured pike, halberds are evens against P&S) and 2 dice at Swiss advantaged/French disadvantage.

Again, assuming no damage to either party, in the French next turn the 'Gendarms who are French P&S' charge the 'flank'. It's not a flank charge. Impact would be 6 dice at advantage to the French vs 6 dice at disadvantage to the Swiss.

Assuming the Swiss lose, they will NOT count as having a Keil because they don't have 2 ranks 4 pike deep.

Is this correct?

Sorry it's a bit confusing, I can't seem to word it any better.