Charge Question

[sagji]

No. If you want to hit the MF you need to declare your charge on both BGs in the first place.

I think this is not quite true. I believe the Cav can declare a charge with a slight wheel so that they will hit only the LH if the LH don't evade, but will hit the MF if the LH do evade. In this case a charge is only declared against the LH untill they evade at which point a charge is declared against the MF if the cav's actual move will reach them.
The subtle difference is that if different charge is resolved first the MF are eligible to intercept it.

Alternatively the Cav can include a more severe wheel so their left base hits the right LH and their right base steps forward into the MF. In this case both are targets and the MF can't intercept another charge. When the LH evade the Cav don't get a VMD as not all targets have evaded, and if they don't have the move to contact the MF they don't contact them and the charge against the MF is cancelled so they are now eligible to intercept a subsequent charge.

[rbodleyscott]

No. If you want to hit the MF you need to declare your charge on both BGs in the first place.

I think this is not quite true. I believe the Cav can declare a charge with a slight wheel so that they will hit only the LH if the LH don't evade, but will hit the MF if the LH do evade. In this case a charge is only declared against the LH untill they evade at which point a charge is declared against the MF if the cav's actual move will reach them.
The subtle difference is that if different charge is resolved first the MF are eligible to intercept it.

Alternatively the Cav can include a more severe wheel so their left base hits the right LH and their right base steps forward into the MF. In this case both are targets and the MF can't intercept another charge. When the LH evade the Cav don't get a VMD as not all targets have evaded, and if they don't have the move to contact the MF they don't contact them and the charge against the MF is cancelled so they are now eligible to intercept a subsequent charge.

You are right, and I did qualify my statement later in the post.

However, while arguably not strictly forbidden by the present wording, it would not be in the spirit of the rules to declare a charge on the LH only without specifying any wheel, wait till the LH decided to evade and then declare a wheel that does not follow the LH by the shortest route (obviously for the sole purpose of contacting another BG that was not originally specified as a target of the charge).

So if you want to wheel in such a way that another BG will be in the path of your charge if the nearest one evades, declare it when you declare the charge. (It will avoid an argument).

If this becomes an issue we may need to FAQ it, assuming we feeling strongly enough about it after further discussion.

[babyshark]

So if you want to wheel in such a way that another BG will be in the path of your charge if the nearest one evades, declare it when you declare the charge. (It will avoid an argument).

Perfectly sensible, both from a rules standpoint and a practical-play standpoint.

Marc

[BrianC]

Thanks for the replies, its really great to hear from diferent sides of people who both know the rules and period. I'm just trying to be precise so as to not loose the spirit of the rules and allow gamesmanship. I am not a tournament player and doubt I ever will, I prefer to play against opponents who like to refight historical battles in a historical way. Perhaps throwing in the odd what if.

So from my original scenario I took 2 more pics. The first one is the initial set up where I would not change my charge direction so that I could potentially impact another BG in behind the LH. Then the second one is the end result after the LH evade.

Question. Is it ok to do this if skirmishers are too close to their friendly lines? I mean if the horse had been 2 MUs forward and slightly in front of the MF. Would my cavalry has viewed the skirmishers as the main target or would they have seen the MF as the real target. And by charging they would clear the skirmishers out and then hit the MF BG? That is kind of my reasoning for clarifying this tactic. Of course if the skirmishers are far enough forward, this becomes a non issue. Or alternatively I could declare a charge on both BG's and charge and hit them in the centre.






Thanks

Brian

[TigerG]

Well for the second picture the second base of horse (left one) would not step up and would become an overlap in the Manoeuvre phase as page 53.

Tony G.

[BrianC]

I know that in the impact phase combat segment it would be a 1 base vs 1 base fight. I still thought you stepped forward. Then the cavalry would conform in the maneuver phase and the left base would then fight as an overlap until such time as it could be fed into the melee. At least I thought that was how I understood it : ). But I could be wrong.

[shall]

Ok several things to deal with here so let me try to give an official view for you .....

1. You can declare the charge in whatever direction you like as long as it can physically contact one BG by doing so. So its up to you as the charger to make use of this when it is helpful. In the example above the Cv can wheel to charge just B, or B and C, or even A and B. If a target can be contacted by stepping forward it counts as charged and has to respond. So for instance if you wheeled left and charge A and contacted with the front left corner then B would be contacted with a step forward.

2. A revealed BG - see page 52 middle section at the end. If an evade causes a new target to be revealed it too gets charged. So in the above if you charge B and it evades, C is revealed and must now respond as well, likely evading.

3. Quite correct on the evade of the BG A. It cannot evade to its rear as it is charged from flank or rear and can only evade away from the charge. Note that is the Cv also charged A then the evade would then split the angle of the two charges and the LH woud need a CMT to stand and received anyway.

4. You only wheel in an attempt to catch evades if all targets evade and have moved out of the path of the original charge - page 68 end ofr top section. So if both B and C evades and ar no longer to the front of the charge you can wheel the charge from its original line in an attemtpt o catch them. Similarly you only VMD if all targets evade.

5. ON THE EARLIER ONE. Its actually a 2 base vs 2 base impact as you have contacted two different bases in the charge - the front and rear. It makes no difference that it is done on the rear base. Factors for both as per front contact though (so if Sp they count front ranks factors and 2 deep etc.). This is often a good thing to do to get more dice and is fair enough if there is no flank cover to stop it happening. So 4 dice a side at impact. The charge is a frontal charge in that it does qualify for a flank charge. Ut therefore conforms tot he front with the right hand file moving into normal front contact and theother fil into an overlap position. It then continues as a normal melee.

Hope all that helps

Si

[sagji]

Well for the second picture the second base of horse (left one) would not step up and would become an overlap in the Manoeuvre phase as page 53.

Tony G.

No it will step forward - you MUST step forward it it would contact enemy. It will also fight while it is not a legal flank contact it is still a legal contact so counts as a frontal contact.

NOTE: if the Cav was 1 base width to its right it would still be able to contact the rear MF counting as a "frontal contact" and when the Cav conforms with the MF it moves so the right Cav is lined up with the leftmost front MF.

[shall]

Correct Sagji.

A step forward is not a choice. It represents the troops themselves doing their best to make contact having been ordered to do so. If they can make contact in any way by such means they must do so.

Si

[Svejk1914]

Hope all that helps

It does indeed. Thanks Simon.
I didn't want to charge group A with the Cav as I figured the flank attack from the LF would do pretty well. It did
We played the rest somewhat wrong though. He evaded with B and since we couldn't figure out if C had to check to evade or could choose to evade they stood and received the attack. Which I promptly fluffed the dice on.

We didn't get too many turns in, still a lot of looking in the rules to make sure we were doing it right, but what we played of the rules felt pretty good.
The other minor questions that came up I have pretty much found answered here on the forums.
Other than the fact I will now have a lot more painting to do (mostly have DBA armies ) I think we are going to like these rules.

[sagji]

Ok several things to deal with here so let me try to give an official view for you .....

1. You can declare the charge in whatever direction you like as long as it can physically contact one BG by doing so. So its up to you as the charger to make use of this when it is helpful. In the example above the Cv can wheel to charge just B, or B and C, or even A and B. If a target can be contacted by stepping forward it counts as charged and has to respond. So for instance if you wheeled left and charge A and contacted with the front left corner then B would be contacted with a step forward.

Si

If in the orrigional example the LH were close enough so that the Cav can't wheel far enough to be able to hit the MF before contacting the LH thay can still declare the charge with a larger wheel - in expectation of the LH evading.

[terrys]

But you can legally declare a charge on 2 BGs in the first place provided that they are both in charge reach.

However, you must be able to contact both (with a step forwards if necessary) in the position they are currently in.
i.e. if neither evaded. You can't declare a charge on a Bg that you could only contact if another BG evaded.

from the rulebook:

To be allowed to declare a charge, there must be a visible enemy base that can be “legally” contacted by the charging battle group within its normal move distance through the terrain to be crossed. A battle group can declare charges on as many enemy battle groups as can be“legally” contacted within this move distance.

and:

Any enemy battle group in the path of a charge counts as being charged if it can be “legally” contacted, even if it was not one of the originally declared targets of the charge. This applies even if it can only be contacted by bases stepping forward. It does not apply if, due to intervening friends, it could not be contacted even by stepping forward bases – unless the situation changes ..........

Since the situation can't change until after the evade - to declare a charge on multiple BGs you MUST be able to contact each target before the evade.


To address another point:

I think this is not quite true. I believe the Cav can declare a charge with a slight wheel so that they will hit only the LH if the LH don't evade, but will hit the MF if the LH do evade. In this case a charge is only declared against the LH untill they evade at which point a charge is declared against the MF if the cav's actual move will reach them.
The subtle difference is that if different charge is resolved first the MF are eligible to intercept it.

You have to be careful about timing with regard to charges, evades and intercepts....
The sequence is:
Declare all charges.
Make interception moves.
Make evade moves.
Make charge moves.
(missing out the bits requiring CMT's/break tests etc)

So you must:
1) Declare charges - (on targets that are legal before any bases are moved)
2) Make your interception moves - (note that this is BEFORE evades)
3) Make evade moves
4) Move charges

A BG that becomes a target because of the evade (and only if the VMD roll takes the chargers into them), only tests for being charged between points 3) and 4)
It's also important that intercepts are made before evades - which means that you can't intercept a charge if it only becomes possible after the evade.

[sagji]

However, while arguably not strictly forbidden by the present wording, it would not be in the spirit of the rules to declare a charge on the LH only without specifying any wheel, wait till the LH decided to evade and then declare a wheel that does not follow the LH by the shortest route (obviously for the sole purpose of contacting another BG that was not originally specified as a target of the charge).

So if you want to wheel in such a way that another BG will be in the path of your charge if the nearest one evades, declare it when you declare the charge. (It will avoid an argument).

If this becomes an issue we may need to FAQ it, assuming we feeling strongly enough about it after further discussion.

I believe that it is prohibited.
At some point the path of a charge is determined - this must be before interceptions are declared. Logically it is when the charge is declared as I don't think you should be able to issue a order knowing another BG will, or won't, obey orders, but it should be possible to issue the order knowing it might disobey orders.
I think the only reason you can change from this is if all initial targets (i.e. all you would contact if no other BGs move) evade or rout. An intercepting BG doesn't prevent this retargeting, and you are never forced to retarget.

The rules don't specify what you can do in this persuit, but I would expect it to be the shortest path to catch one or more (player's designation) of the evading BGs, and that it can only charge other enemy if:
a) they are intercepting and cross this path.
b) they are contacted by stepping forward.
c) contacting them will allow stepping forward to hit an initial target.
d) they may evade or rout.

[terrys]

a) they are intercepting and cross this path.
b) they are contacted by stepping forward.
c) contacting them will allow stepping forward to hit an initial target.
d) they may evade or rout.

e) They are in the direct line of the charge - or in the way if the chargers wheel to follow evaders (this being the only allowed change of direction after the target has evaded)
f) No further than the VMD of the chargers.[/quote]

[BrianC]

Thanks for the detailed responses guys,

So I will take it that the last pics where the cavalry are angled in would be a valid charge. Boy once you go down the rabbit hole look out : ). Still its good to hear the experience of others as it adds to what is in the rules, thanks again

Brian

[sagji]

a) they are intercepting and cross this path.
b) they are contacted by stepping forward.
c) contacting them will allow stepping forward to hit an initial target.
d) they may evade or rout.

e) They are in the direct line of the charge - or in the way if the chargers wheel to follow evaders (this being the only allowed change of direction after the target has evaded)
f) No further than the VMD of the chargers.

I think you have missed the fact that this list applies only when the charger has decided to follow evaders - with the implication that they wish to contact the evaders. They should not be able to use the pursuit of the evaders as a way af changeing how they charge a different BG.
I assume by f) you mean the standard charge distance rules - which are already implied.

[TigerG]

So for charging you can wheel in front of the enemy to hit any unit you wish as long as the number of stands you come in contact with equal or exceed the number stands you would contact if you went straight ahead.

Another question. If charging straight you would only hit one stand but wheeling would result in more than one stand do you have to wheel?

Tony G.

[hammy]

So for charging you can wheel in front of the enemy to hit any unit you wish as long as the number of stands you come in contact with equal or exceed the number stands you would contact if you went straight ahead.

Correct

Another question. If charging straight you would only hit one stand but wheeling would result in more than one stand do you have to wheel?

No, you can always choose to charge straight ahead.

[terrys]

I assume by f) you mean the standard charge distance rules - which are already implied.

No!

If you declare a charge on a BG that evades, your charge move is then adjusted by the VMD dice roll.
i.e. If you charge a BG of skirmishers 2 MUs away with your cavalry, and there is a another BG 4 MUs away (behind the skirmishers). If you roll a 1 on the VMD you will stop 1MU short of the second BG. (having moved your VMD distance of 3)
Equally if the 2nd BG is 7 MUs away and you roll a 6 you will hit them (unless they run away as well)

Basically, once (all) of your target evades (or breaks) your charge distance is dictated by the VMD roll.

[sagji]

I assume by f) you mean the standard charge distance rules - which are already implied.

No!

If you declare a charge on a BG that evades, your charge move is then adjusted by the VMD dice roll.
i.e. If you charge a BG of skirmishers 2 MUs away with your cavalry, and there is a another BG 4 MUs away (behind the skirmishers). If you roll a 1 on the VMD you will stop 1MU short of the second BG. (having moved your VMD distance of 3)
Equally if the 2nd BG is 7 MUs away and you roll a 6 you will hit them (unless they run away as well)

Basically, once (all) of your target evades (or breaks) your charge distance is dictated by the VMD roll.

Which I consider a standard charge distance rule - by stating a maximum distance to contact you are implying it also limits the distance a base can step forward to contact.

In your example above I believe the chargers have the option, when the declare the charge, to say they are charging the skirmishers and the rear BG. If the skirmishers stand the charge on the rear BG is cancelled, if not the the VMD does not apply as not all targets have evaded.

There are a few places where the rules refer to targets evading where they probably should refer to evading or routing.
p60 skirmishers contacting if any target evades.
p68 if all targets evade.