Getting at Lone Commanders

[RobKhan]

HI All,

Apart from capturing a camp, another first happened for me last Friday. MY opponent tried to move one of his TC's past my LC. The rules state he must be in shooting range and not able to get to a friendly BG for me to have killed him.
We differed on the interpretation of this. Our compromise was that he took the move back. His TC would have arrived too late for his disintegrating Turcopoles anyway.

Does the TC have to be in shooting arc as well as shooting range to end his days as a pincushion?

For contact by an enemy, does it have to be a legitimate close combat contact to end his career?

Cheers
Robkhan

[grahambriggs]

I think contact can be any sort of touching. Believe he has to be in arc to be shot.

[RobKhan]

I think contact can be any sort of touching. Believe he has to be in arc to be shot.

Thanks for the response Graham, but if this came up in a tournament, what would the answer be?

Cheers
Robkhan

[bbotus]

MY opponent tried to move one of his TC's past my LC.

As per the last paragraph on page 52, V2, that was a legal move and should have been allowed. Loss of his commander would only happen during any phase when you are moving your BG. Also, the TC would only be lost if and only if your LC move through his TC position and he is not within 'normal move' distance of a friendly BG (7 MU in open, less in other terrain).

As for shooting, it says that if you move a BG within shooting range of an enemy TC, the TC is lost if it cannot be immediately moved within normal move distance to a friendly BG. I've always played it that 'arc of fire' is assumed. But the rules are silent on whether or not 'arc of fire' is required. I've probably read too much into the rules.

[zoltan]

As for shooting, it says that if you move a BG within shooting range of an enemy TC, the TC is lost if it cannot be immediately moved within normal move distance to a friendly BG. I've always played it that 'arc of fire' is assumed. But the rules are silent on whether or not 'arc of fire' is required. I've probably read too much into the rules.

RBS is always adamant that the rules mean exactly what they say. If it says 'shooting range' that's what it means. If it doesn't say 'arc of fire' that's what it means and we should NOT read into 'shooting range' shooting range and arc of fire.

[kevinj]

So, if the general is within 6 MU of my MF bow, he has to move or die even if he's directly behind them?

[zoltan]

So, if the general is within 6 MU of my MF bow, he has to move or die even if he's directly behind them?

Correct, one dead general.

V2, 8-16
"If a battle group's move would take it into contact or within shooting range of an enemy commander who is not with a battle group, he must immediately move (in any phase or turn) to join a friendly battle group, if there is one within his normal move distance. If not, he does not move and is immediately lost."

As the rule makes clear, this situation comes into play when an enemy battle group moves. I guess it is possible that such a move could result the enemy commander being within 6 MU of the moving battle group and yet still to its rear (or at least out of arc).

If in the commander's movement phase he moves within shooting range (but not arc) of the enemy MF bow, then this rule does not apply.

[kevinj]

I think to move so the commander is in range but behind would probably require an expansion.

Of course, the logical extension of playing this as written is that if the commander is within 6 MU of the Bow at the start of the move he's perfectly safe as the move would not take the Bow within shooting range because they're already there.

I suggest that this is an instance where playing the rule as written is somewhat perverse. I've always interpreted it in a similar way to bbotus, if the commander is in a position where the Bow could shoot him (including at the start of their move), he has to move or die.

[RobKhan]

The way bbotus writes, it has to be the BG doing the move and not the Command stand. Does this mean that if the Command stand moves within shooting range of my LC in the JAP, then he doesn't die?? This is getting more complicated than I thought.

Robkhan

[pyruse]

I think to move so the commander is in range but behind would probably require an expansion.

Of course, the logical extension of playing this as written is that if the commander is within 6 MU of the Bow at the start of the move he's perfectly safe as the move would not take the Bow within shooting range because they're already there.

I suggest that this is an instance where playing the rule as written is somewhat perverse. I've always interpreted it in a similar way to bbotus, if the commander is in a position where the Bow could shoot him (including at the start of their move), he has to move or die.

If they are already within 6MU, then any move, even of a gnat's todger, puts the commander at risk, since such a move clearly takes it 'within shooting range'. The fact that it started within range is irrelevant.

[dave_r]

If we are going to be like this then if a commander is within 10" of any BG he must move or die. The rule doesn't state that the troops have to have shooting weapons - therefore shooting range would be heavy artillery range for my LH JLS.

RBS is also fond of saying that "if we had to explain every situation fully then the rules would be 1000 pages long". Normally followed by "stop being a tw*t"

[petedalby]

The way bbotus writes, it has to be the BG doing the move and not the Command stand. Does this mean that if the Command stand moves within shooting range of my LC in the JAP, then he doesn't die??

Correct - as bbotus has noted earlier the relevant rules are on page 52. The Commander is usually only at risk in the opponent's turn.

Zoltan - aka Steve - is being less than helpful. Shooting range is defined on page 87. And for most BGs, with the exception of LH and LCh, the target has to be in front of them.

[zoltan]

The way bbotus writes, it has to be the BG doing the move and not the Command stand. Does this mean that if the Command stand moves within shooting range of my LC in the JAP, then he doesn't die??

Correct - as bbotus has noted earlier the relevant rules are on page 52. The Commander is usually only at risk in the opponent's turn.

Zoltan - aka Steve - is being less than helpful. Shooting range is defined on page 87. And for most BGs, with the exception of LH and LCh, the target has to be in front of them.

Well I don't think that's very fair Pete!

1. I quoted the rule book verbatim
2. I made the point that the rule applies only when a BG capable of shooting (in this case MF bow) moves into shooting range of an enemy commander, and not when the commander moves within shooting range of the BG
3. In response to Kevinj's point I mused that it seemed to be theoretically possible for the BG to move in such a way that the commander was not within shooting arc/ended up to the rear of the BG.

The shooting range table at V2 11-2 does not mention target priority/shooting arc - that is a different rule on a different page.

So let's get down to tin tacks Pete and Dave - when the rule book says "within shooting range" do you guys actually play that it means "within shooting range and shooting arc"? Is that how you play it? Yes or no?

[RobKhan]

Stay cool guys.

There's a hole in the bucket dear Henry, dear Henry.......etc.

All of us having done the full circle, I quote my question in the first message "Does the TC have to be in shooting arc as well as shooting range to end his days as a pincushion?" and this is where Zoltan has gotten down to tin tacks. The rules concerning shooting at lone commanders have only shooting range as the factor and numbers of dice, POA's, arc and priority don't count. Could this be because the shooting is not calculated and diced for, and therefore it is an abstract and thus Arc and Priority aren't needed to determine the silly commander's fate?? I.E Move the shooters into range (within 360 degrees) if the commander can't move to a refuge" He's dead Jim." Is this the Authors' intent??

And further to this, for contact to kill, what happens if it is BG side edge to Commander stand contact?

Cheers
Robkhan

[zoltan]

Well fix it! Dear Henry, dear Henry, dear Henry
Just fix it dear Henry
Dear Henry fix it!!

I agree with Robkhan - it's an abstract, simple mechanism.

[bbotus]

And further to this, for contact to kill, what happens if it is BG side edge to Commander stand contact?

This one is easy. Page 52, V2, says that as long as the moving BG move would contact the commander, he must move or is lost. Side edge contact counts as contact. It even says so in the 10-9 paragraphs or page 82 in the hard copy.

As for Authors' intent on shooting range being 360 or arc of fire? Zoltan and company are probably correct. I think his comment about the authors is right on:

RBS is always adamant that the rules mean exactly what they say. If it says 'shooting range' that's what it means. If it doesn't say 'arc of fire' that's what it means and we should NOT read into 'shooting range' shooting range and arc of fire.

[kevinj]

OK, I'll stop trying to see how ludicrous I can make this because this is the Annual Occaision where Dave R is Correct. Yes I said it!

There are no magical arrows shot from the buttocks of death.

There is no hidden artillery piece giving a BG with no missile capability the ability to mow down Generals at vast ranges.

It has to be within range and arc of the shooting weapon of the BG in question. Anything else is stupid.

[bbotus]

OK, I'll stop trying to see how ludicrous I can make this because this is the Annual Occaision where Dave R is Correct. Yes I said it!

There are no magical arrows shot from the buttocks of death.

There is no hidden artillery piece giving a BG with no missile capability the ability to mow down Generals at vast ranges.

It has to be within range and arc of the shooting weapon of the BG in question. Anything else is stupid.

No, Dave R is not correct this time. The good book specifies that the commander is at risk if a BG moves within shooting range. If you go to pages 86 and 87, it specifies that ranges are based on the capabilities that the bases of a BG have. Dave R can't claim a 12 MU range for all his units.

Arc of Fire: If we do use the 360 degree range idea, then it has to be measured from the front edge of the BG as per page 87 which says range is measured from the front edge of the front rank base. I personally think the authors intended but forgot to mention 'arc of fire' for commander loss. 'Stupid' or not it just isn't there. And killing a commander doesn't take massed fire by a unit, just a few guys. So.....

[petedalby]

Well I don't think that's very fair Pete!

My apologies Steve - no offence intended.

We have a relatively simple question. The movement bit is clear and well defined. The shooting bit might be open to interpretation but I believe most right thinking people would expect to see the shooting base in arc and in range and obeying all of the other rules for shooting such as visibility. And in arc for most shooters is in front. You need to read the whole section on shooting rather than just selective bits.

My concern is that 'silly' interpretations and attempts to twist the rules such as this are why FoG is losing players. When people read this they must think we're daft.

[petedalby]

RobKhan - where are you based?