Field fortifications question

[martindneiluk]

Tricky situation that arose tonight. A single defending BG of 4 legion. 2 wide 2 deep, is defending field fortifications (FF) 4 wide against a single attacking knight BG 6 wide, one base deep. The knights are overlaping the legion on one side only and their front edges are touching the front edge of the defender's FF, thus:

LLLL
LLLL
FFFFFFFF
KKKKKK

In the defenders movement phase a BG of 4 Cv can move/charge into the space at the LHS of the legion., taking up position behind the FF, thus:

LLLLCC
LLLLCC
FFFFFFFF
KKKKKK

Question: In the defender's phase can the Cv BG charge the knights and if they did so would they get the benefit of the FF?

If they cannot charge but can move into place behind the FF can they now act as overlaps in any melee combat fought by the legions? Or indeed can they join the melee without previously charging?

If they cannot charge nor join the melee, what happens?

Yours, (rather puggled.)

Martin

p.s. apologies if its already somewhere in the rules; like everyone else I'm still stumbling around a bit.

[terrys]

My first stab at this (others may disagree!!)

1st question though .... Were the Legionaries disrupted/Fragmented? - Otherwise the knights should have broken off during the previous JAP phase.
2nd question - Why did the knights charge legionaries behind a fortification? They don't have to take the CMT test to not charge - and they are very unlikely to win.

Assuming the legionaries were at least disrupted .....
The Cavalry may contact the knights in the impact phase - all 'in the open' POA's are discounted. Which probably means that the Cav will be a POA up (light spear?). In the following melee phase the knights will be a POA up (heavy armour?). Mounted don't get the POA for defending fortifications.

[martindneiluk]

>1st question though .... Were the Legionaries disrupted/Fragmented? - Otherwise the knights should have broken off during the previous JAP phase.

Answer - the legionaries were disrupted so the knights did not break off.

>2nd question - Why did the knights charge legionaries behind a fortification? They don't have to take the CMT test to not charge - and they are very unlikely to win.

Well, let's say they had no choice but to charge. However I'm not too sure that knights charging legions behind FF is as bad as it looks. Sure they will be a POA down on impact but equal in melee. Not brilliant but not terrible either.

>The Cavalry may contact the knights in the impact phase - all 'in the open' POA's are discounted. Which probably means that the Cav will be a POA up (light spear?). In the following melee phase the knights will be a POA up (heavy armour?). Mounted don't get the POA for defending fortifications.

I cannot see any rule that prevents mounted from benefiting from FF.

You say " - all 'in the open' POA's are discounted." Why would this be?

They wouldn't be a POA up on impact for the light spear because of the knight lance POA and the rule that light spear POA only applies if there are no other net POAs. As you say they would be a POA down during melee if the FF don't count because of better armour.

I'm still unsure what the correct treatment of the situation would be.

Martin

[neilhammond]

>You say " - all 'in the open' POA's are discounted." Why would this be?

Martin

If you look in the Glossary of Terms section at the back of the rules, and look at the definition of Open Terrain, you will see that fortifications don't count as open terrain. Since lance POA only counts in open terrain it means that the lance POA isn't applicable.

If you look at the Impact and Melee POA table you'll see that the FF POA factor only applies if foot are defending a field fortification.

[terrys]

Well, let's say they had no choice but to charge. However I'm not too sure that knights charging legions behind FF is as bad as it looks. Sure they will be a POA down on impact but equal in melee. Not brilliant but not terrible either.

The Legionaries get their + for 'Impact Foot' and a + for 'foot defending field fortifications'
The Knights don't get their Lance POA because from the rules:
'POAs and Cohesion Test modifiers only applying “in open terrain” do not count: If attacking or defending fortifications or a riverbank.'

So the legionaries would be on a ++ in the impact phase, and are equal in melee.


For the cavalry - since the knights can't count their Lance (because they don't count as being in the open), then the light spear counts since there are no other NET POAs

[martindneiluk]

Many thanks for the responses. They've cleared up the subsidiary questions about POAs rather nicely.

However, back to the original question:

>>>>
Question: In the defender's phase can the Cv BG charge the knights and if they did so would they get the benefit of the FF?

If they cannot charge but can move into place behind the FF can they now act as overlaps in any melee combat fought by the legions? Or indeed can they join the melee without previously charging?

If they cannot charge nor join the melee, what happens?
>>>

If it was another legion instead of Cv could the legion move in behind the FF as a charge or as a normal move? If it was a normal move could they act as overlaps or indeed join the melee? I suspect not. If they charge I suspect they would not be defending the fortifications and would not therefore benefit from them in the impact phase. It follows however that they would benefit from the fortifications in the subsequent melee phase. Right?

Cheers

Martin

[terrys]

Basically - You can only move into contact with a charge move (in the impact phase). The only time you can move into contact in the movement phase is as an overlap only. Since front-to-front contact is not an 'overlap' then the only way to make this contact is with a charge......Although since the combat will be across the FF, then it's really more of a stroll into contact (with the cavalry using spears on the way in - hence the POA)

If it was another legion instead of Cv could the legion move in behind the FF as a charge or as a normal move? If it was a normal move could they act as overlaps or indeed join the melee? I suspect not. If they charge I suspect they would not be defending the fortifications and would not therefore benefit from them in the impact phase. It follows however that they would benefit from the fortifications in the subsequent melee phase. Right?

Certainly on the grounds that 'charging' can't also be considered to be 'defending' then you're correct. The 2nd Legion would fight an impact phase on evens, but would then get the POA for defending FF's in the melee phase, so would again be on evens against the heavier armour of the knights.

[shall]

I think we need to accept this one as an abstraction of words. We only allow a contact frontally like this as an imnpact phase charge move. Clearly the troops "charging" here would not really be doing so but th POA factors do deal with that. "Charge" is a general term for a move to impact - it doesn't necessarily mean running full pelt ... I am sure we all agree that a Pike "Charge" is hardly a flat out thing!!

There is nothing to stop mounted defending the rear of FF. However they get no benefit from it - see below. It just ensure the second bullet applies...

• Mounted get no + POA for defending fortifications ... its in the table. So that is covered.
  
  Troops fighting across FF are not in open terrain as per the g,glossary definition of open terrain.

A legionaries a ++ at impact as TS says. Cv a bit more wired in feel but I agree no POA for the lancers but the light spear counts.

So the means is a bit abstract perhaps but the end result feel right to me in that its a general mounted scarmble over some fences and in that case I expedct LSp Sw is better than Lnc Sw. Not sure we can claim that was a design breakthrough but the end result feel spot on for me.

Si