Trying to understand Point Values table (page 149)

[irondog068]

Nagashino, Senakhara, I would have to get some books to gicve more examples.

Irondog

[carlos]

I do remember they manoeuvered in Mongol style with their generals waving flags from a high position to command the troops down below. This might have been Post-Mongol of course.

[irondog068]

i do not know what you mean by Mongol style. The early peroid (Gempi and earlier) The Samurai charged past eack other both sides firing arrows for one side till honor had been filled and sometimes break off. The style of armor left the Samurai something like a gun platform only able to fire from the horses head to about 45 degrees. Which is why the bow and not the sword was the mark of a Samurai in that peroid. Later in the peroid as armor got better and firearms were being used in large numbers the Samurai would charge en mass using a Yari (lance). Ii opened the battle of Senaghara with a massed charge of cavalry. All wearing red armor.

Daymios would sit on a camp stool and direct the fighting using horns, war drums and the waving of the war fan. Rent "Ran" to see how a command unit was set up.

[karakhanid]

Hello:
I think that there is a mixture in most palyer's mind between the real samurai and the one of the XIX-earlyXX century novels.Most of the historical sources describe the the samurais as warriors willing to win, not to die, for their lords, making complex maneouvers over the battlefield, even combined sea&land attacs during the Minamoto-Taira wars.
I think that this is a good reason to classify the professional warriors as drilled.
Mikel

[irondog068]

Ahhhh,
So true grasshopper. During the Age of Country at War peroid the armies were huge, well drilled and full time soldiers. A cast system was set up that a farmer was always a farmer fisherman always a fisherman and Samurai (from the lowest Ashigaru to the Samurai themself) were always Samurai. This was done so armies would not fade away when the crops needed harvesting.

Irondog

[ars_belli]

Hmmm... I have read quite a bit on the samurai over the years, and I cannot recall ever seeing anything suggesting that samurai from 1100-1500 (the period that would be covered by FoG) were trained in permanent units and drilled to fight in formations consisting of regular ranks and files. On the contrary, everything I have seen indicates that samurai from 1100-1500 were highly skilled, individualistic warriors who lived within a feudal martial culture that placed a premium on individual skill and valor, with an emphasis on single combat between warriors of equivalent rank and prestige, and a rewards system in which each warrior collected heads as battlefield trophies to demonstrate his bravery and prowess to his immediate overlord. Thus, to me at least, the samurai of 1100-1500 sound much more like undrilled Gallic warriors or Norman knights than drilled Spartan hoplites or Roman legionaries.

Cheers,
Scott

[shall]

see below

[shall]

Well as its one of my favourite pieces of history even to the extent of me touring Japan and owning about 3000 figures for the armies....

BGs are not necessarily trained troops and grouped tightly together - yes Drilel HF are exactly that, but Undrilled MF are very different in many cases In some armies they will reflect loose groupings of troops fighting in individualistic ways. Some arabic swordsmen will be like this. Many samurai battles will be best thought of that way.

When studying the BG concept some of the samurai battles were ones we looked at. BG often reflect clans in the later battles - the Red Ai etc.

The most important thing for Samurai fans is that the combat system allows for a very real potrayal of the troops. They were never Bw(S). The separation of Impact and Melee is also a big asset in modelling Samurai.


Early on they were mounted Bw Sw types and dismounted often to fight as perhaps Bw Sk Sw types. In the late period - Oba Nobunagas army etc. - you did find real trained units of troops. Swordsmanship took over more from the bow as time progressed. The Takeda clan in the late period favoured the cavalry charge and may justify some lance armed cavalry when we finalise the list. Imperial forces at times fought with Samurai. The monks didn't and usually fought against samurai - although they did join a samurai cause on occasion. All of this can be very well modelled in the FOG system with a natural feel.


I have tested out Samurai in 2 trial battles and the rules seem to give a very good feel for the battles in that:

1. It is the samurai who lead the fight - whereas I won many a battle with mass Ax in DBM
2. They have a really good feel as a mix of bw/Sw skills be that on horseback or foot
3. They tend to shoot for a whuile and then fight - whereas in a samurai sivil war in DBM it was machine gun fire at 100 paces in DBM when faced with each other, and no contact was ever made (happened when we refought sekigahara).

Clearly the BGs of early samurai battles are reflecting a mass of individualistic fighters clustered in ther same are under rather loose leadership.

Worry not therefore - they feel good and about right stylistically - perhaps for the first time in a general set of rules. I say this from both experience and with something of a passion for the period. So my 3000 figures will be put to good FOG use in due course. I am looking forward to doing some samurai refights in FOG.

Cheers

Si

[shall]

Well as its one of my favourite pieces of history even to the extent of me touring Japan and owning about 2000 figures for the armies....

BGs are not necessarily trained troops and grouped tightly together - yes Drilel HF are exactly that, but Undrilled MF are very different in many cases In some armies they will reflect loose groupings of troops fighting in individualistic ways. Some arabic swordsmen will be like this. Many samurai battles will be best thought of that way.

When studying the BG concept some of the samurai battles were ones we looked at. BG often reflect clans in the later battles - the Red Ai etc.

The most important thing for Samurai fans is that the combat system allows for a very real potrayal of the troops. They were never Bw(S). The separation of Impact and Melee is also a big asset in modelling Samurai.


Early on they were mounted Bw Sw types and dismounted often to fight as perhaps Bw Sk Sw types. In the late period - Oba Nobunagas army etc. - you did find real trained units of troops. Swordsmanship took over more from the bow as time progressed. The Takeda clan in the late period favoured the cavalry charge and may justify some lance armed cavalry when we finalise the list. Imperial forces at times fought with Samurai. The monks didn't and usually fought against samurai - although they did join a samurai cause on occasion. All of this can be very well modelled in the FOG system with a natural feel.


I have tested out Samurai in 2 trial battles and the rules seem to give a very good feel for the battles in that:

1. It is the samurai who lead the fight - whereas I won many a battle with mass Ax in DBM
2. They have a really good feel as a mix of bw/Sw skills be that on horseback or foot
3. They tend to shoot for a whuile and then fight - whereas in a samurai sivil war in DBM it was machine gun fire at 100 paces in DBM when faced with each other, and no contact was ever made (happened when we refought sekigahara).

Clearly the BGs of early samurai battles are reflecting a mass of individualistic fighters clustered in ther same are under rather loose leadership.

Worry not therefore - they feel good and about right stylistically - perhaps for the first time in a general set of rules. I say this from both experience and with something of a passion for the period. So my 2000 figures will be put to good FOG use in due course. I am looking forward to doing some samurai refights in FOG.

Cheers

Si

[karakhanid]

individual skill and valor, with an emphasis on single combat between warriors of equivalent rank and prestige, and a rewards system in which each warrior collected heads as battlefield trophies to demonstrate his bravery and prowess to his immediate overlord

individual skill and valor, with an emphasis on single combat between warriors of equivalent rank and prestige, and a rewards system in which each warrior collected hostages/prisoners as battlefield trophies to demonstrate his bravery and prowess to his immediate overlord
Should 100YW knights be undrilled?
Mikel

[ars_belli]

individual skill and valor, with an emphasis on single combat between warriors of equivalent rank and prestige, and a rewards system in which each warrior collected hostages/prisoners as battlefield trophies to demonstrate his bravery and prowess to his immediate overlord
Should 100YW knights be undrilled?

If it were up to me, I would say definitely "yes." But then, I don't get to make those decisions.

Cheers,
Scott

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

individual skill and valor, with an emphasis on single combat between warriors of equivalent rank and prestige, and a rewards system in which each warrior collected hostages/prisoners as battlefield trophies to demonstrate his bravery and prowess to his immediate overlord

Should 100YW knights be undrilled?

HYW pre-Ordonnance French knights are indeed undrilled in Storm of Arrows. Most (but not all) English knights are drilled. Most other nation's knights are undrilled from a quick skim.

Regards

[ars_belli]

HYW pre-Ordonnance French knights are indeed undrilled in Storm of Arrows. Most (but not all) English knights are drilled. Most other nation's knights are undrilled from a quick skim.

There you go, then!

Cheers,
Scott

[irondog068]

Keep in mind for what is worth the peroid I am talking is really out of the rules (1550 to 1580ish). Not much of a streatch as I am assured there will be a book put out addressing this peroid if you look how these rules are selling off the shelfs.

Plus all the Opspry books on later Samurai armies. (lots I have only 8 and that is the tip of the Bushido iceberg).
In this peroid these were full time troops. Unlike what Hollywood shows after a side was defeated the looser often was given the chance to fight for the winner. Except for the head Damiyos and those higher ranking Samurai who swore total loyalty to the looser.

It was too expensive to slaughter well trained troops. It was eaiser to have them fight for you. And the Code of Bushido made them loyal to there new leaders.

Irondog

[PELAGIUS]

And of course if you use the excel army list spreadsheet it does it all for you

Where may I find this?

Yours disgracefully

Pelagius

[pbrandon]

Here is one:

http://www.fieldofglory.fr/spip.php?article2

The spreadsheet has an English language option.

Paul

[PELAGIUS]

Here is one:

http://www.fieldofglory.fr/spip.php?article2

The spreadsheet has an English language option.

Paul

*That is very kind of you Paul

*Yours disgracefuly

*Pelagius