Disordered CMT's

[Chriscain]

Looking to get an answer about multiple CMT tests in a single turn, as well as the CMT to advance results of firing.

1: Does the CMT to advance result from getting 1 or 2 hits count:

• *On every turn until you have passed the test.
  *Only on your next turn.
  *Only on the next time you activate the unit.

I can't seem to find anything for when you discard this result. For example, defenders active turn, shoots and hits a cavalry unit at 4mu (so no need to retreat) and scores 2 hits, -1 cohesion loss, CMT penalty. Does that CMT penalty still count on the offensive players active turn, is it discarded after the offensive players active turn even if he doesn't activate the cavalry unit, or some combination of the above bullet points that I've not yet listed? I can't seem to find anything definitive in the book.

2:If a unit of disordered Average/Drilled cavalry, charging a unit of infantry with a CMT to advance requirement from the previous shooting phase, receiving 1-2 hits of reaction fire, would they:

• *Disregard the CMT from the movement penalty, test for Disordered Assault CMT, test for reaction fire.
  *Test to advance from the movement penalty marker, this pass counts for all tests this turn.
  *Test to advance from the movement penalty marker, this pass counts for the Disordered Assault CMT. Test another CMT for the reaction fire.
  *Test to advance from the movement penalty marker, test CMT to assault as a Disordered unit, test CMT to pass reaction fire.

Many thanks.

[KendallB]

1. A CMT to advance result only applies if you are the active player and for the next movement phase.
e.g.
It is your opponent's turn. He has no charges.
He fires an infantry unit which is 6MU away at one of your infantry units and gets one hit. The outcome result is "CMT to advance". As it is your opponent's turn and you do not move, this result is IGNORED.
You fire back and do one hit. Your opponent must decide in the firing phase if he wishes to take the CMT to advance. He takes the test but fails.
In the movement phase your opponent moves all of the units but he can't move the unit that was hit any closer to your units (he can move away however)
It is now your turn, your infantry fires at the enemy unit and does two hits causing a cohesion loss, he fires back and misses.
Your infantry can advance as it is free to do so and moves to 2MU hoping to volley him to death in the next turn.

Units are not "Activated" - you move them and may have to make certain CMTs depending on the situation. All unit that are not broken can make some form of movement but losing cohesion levels severly resrticts what you can do.


2. A CMT to advance from a shooting phase only occurs for the next movement phase. If it is your opponents movement phase you ignore it. It is not "stored".
If I read your example correctly, your cavalry got shot in the enemy turn and took 1 cohesion loss to disordered and a CMT to move. The cavalry would then have to take a CMT to move but as it is not your turn it is ignored. The CMT is not "stored".
In your Assault phase you declare a charge and perform a CMT as the cavalry is disordered (unless it's shock cavalry which may still charge).
If it fails this test it can still move as normal outside of 2MU of any enemy (however if it wishes to close to within 2MU that is a complex move and requires a CMT).


Hope that helps!

[deadtorius]

2:If a unit of disordered Average/Drilled cavalry, charging a unit of infantry with a CMT to advance requirement from the previous shooting phase, receiving 1-2 hits of reaction fire, would they:

*Disregard the CMT from the movement penalty, test for Disordered Assault CMT, test for reaction fire.
*Test to advance from the movement penalty marker, this pass counts for all tests this turn.
*Test to advance from the movement penalty marker, this pass counts for the Disordered Assault CMT. Test another CMT for the reaction fire.
*Test to advance from the movement penalty marker, test CMT to assault as a Disordered unit, test CMT to pass reaction fire.

Lets see if I got this right, the cav is disordered and wants to charge, that takes a CMT in this case to initiate charge.
They take hits from defensive fire so must stop at 2MU.

If they want to continue the charge they must pass a new CMT to complete the assault, being disordered has no effect here so its a single test.

If they pass they can continue in to melee. If they fail, it gets ugly for you as you end up at short range taking shooting from your enemy. Likely your cav will be broken or driven off.

[BrettPT]

I'll have a crack at answering this one.

(1) The CMT to advance is taken immediately after the shooting that caused it (even before your opponent rolls his next fire dice in that shooting phase) and the decision to take the test, and the test itself takes place straight away, not in any other phase or turn.

(2) The CMT is optional, you can chose not to take it and accept the 'no advance'.

(3) If you fail the CMT (or chose not to take it) then you cannot advance in the shooting phase of that turn only - this result does not project to subsequent turns.

I believe that some players (maybe including the author?) may mark the effected unit, but hold off taking the CMT to advance until their movement phase (deciding then if they want to advance and taking the test at that time if so), however I don't believe this is correct.

Reasoning

(1) above: The Action Sequence rules on page 24 state that you apply the results immediately. A 'CMT to advance' is a result (it is listed as a result of firing in the table on page 54). Immediately means, well, immediately and not at some later point in time.

(2) above: I think this has been clarified previously. Page 46 says that "A unit can choose not to make a move that requires a CMT" - ie CMTs are voluntary.

(3) above: This is your real question. I don't think it says in the rules that the no advance only applies in the same turn, however I am sure this is what is intended.
Page 55 says a "may not advance" has no effect on the non-active player. This is because the non-active player cannot move in this (other player's) turn anyway and is consistant with applying the result only to the current turn. The rest of the results of firing outcomes also do not make sense unless they only apply to the current turn - for instance you only retire to 3MU, or retire as per the Outcome Moves table immediately after being shot - not for every turn thereafter.

So I think this is a case of 'it goes without saying' that the no advance only applies to a phasing player's forthcoming movement phase.

Cheers
Brett

[KendallB]

Lets see if I got this right, the cav is disordered and wants to charge, that takes a CMT in this case to initiate charge.
They take hits from defensive fire so must stop at 2MU.

If they want to continue the charge they must pass a new CMT to complete the assault, being disordered has no effect here so its a single test.

If they pass they can continue in to melee. If they fail, it gets ugly for you as you end up at short range taking shooting from your enemy. Likely your cav will be broken or driven off.

You might want to look at the Outcomes Table again Dead. If cavalry take any hits from shooting they will fall back to 3MU unless they have an artillery attachment where they can elect to fall back to 2MU. Failing a CMT to close in an assault should not necessarily result in the cavalry getting a volley at close range.

[deadtorius]

Alas the old Greg cells are failing me again.... You are correct in the 3 mu. I was thinking of the foot troops, not the mounted. Either way it could still get messy for the poor cav, who will stand and take shooting for another turn.
Unless you roll dice as abysmally as I tavern known to do

[terrys]

Alas the old Greg cells are failing me again.... You are correct in the 3 mu. I was thinking of the foot troops, not the mounted. Either way it could still get messy for the poor cav, who will stand and take shooting for another turn.

But at least they can't be broken at this range.

I believe that some players (maybe including the author?) may mark the effected unit, but hold off taking the CMT to advance until their movement phase (deciding then if they want to advance and taking the test at that time if so), however I don't believe this is correct.

I usually place a white dice the the '1' facing up to denote a unit that must test to advance. Steve has special 'Halt' markers.

(1) above: The Action Sequence rules on page 24 state that you apply the results immediately. A 'CMT to advance' is a result (it is listed as a result of firing in the table on page 54). Immediately means, well, immediately and not at some later point in time.

Applying results immediately means that
1) A unit that drops cohesion does so immediately.
2) A unit that retires does so immediately.
3)A unit that takes 1 or 2 hits during the firing phase effectively gets a "CMT to advance" affect (marker) immediately, which it obeys for the duration of the turm.

There is a problem with the Reuslt of Firing table which I will correct with the next errata.
3 hits: currently states - "Retire to 3MU if closer or are wavering, otherwise may not advance."
this should read: - "Retire to 3MU if closer or are wavering. May not advance."
i.e. The current entry gives the impression that a unit that retired to 3MU disordered could still advance - wheas no unit getting 3 hits can advance this turn.
I think I've previously given the impression that any unit retiring to 3MU can still advance with a CMT. This is only true if the unit that retired was CAVALRY that took 1 or 2 hits.

[Chriscain]

Many thanks for all the replies, I think I've got the hang of it!