Why is Canada not in the Invasion of America Scenario?

[LandMarine47]

This has been bugging me for a long time and I wanted to bring this up.
In Panzer Corps once you defeat that UK and USSR you are sent away to invade America. Now there are a lot of holes here but they can be easily overlooked as it is just a alternate history but this HAS to be mentioned! Why was Canada never added to the invasion plan? Here the scenarios and why they would work starting with a simple Canada made peace with the Germans. There are oh so many ways to prove this wrong!
1. Had the UK fallen Churchill and his Staff would have relocated to Canada to fight on the war. Here are theories about it.
*if the Canadians resisted (which is unlikely considering the close relation ship to the UK) the British in Canada would fight the Canadians mostly likely with the US 1. Backing them up in open war or 2. Giving them lots of supplies.
2. If Canada somehow wins there would most likely be a Civil War as most of the populace would want British in control considering Canada has been a Commonwealth since the time of the American Revolution.
Now here comes the next part. Even if the Canadians win the Civil war the Americans would most likely invade Canada to prevent them from joining the Axis. (Or a Japanese Invasion from the East)
Now in the Invasion of the US. Assuming Canada is still in the War with the Allies there is NO way the Germans would attack the East Coast head on because a Attack from both Canada and the US would decimate the landing forces. So the Germans would have to Conquer Canada first. This would take at least a year due to Canada's heavy woodland. (With American Back up of course) then the Germans would have to cross a now heavily fortified US Border and with this year of delays the Atomic Bomb would be complete and would be dropped at high value targets in Canada then Europe.

Now I know a lot of you will say "it's just a game" but I just wanted to bring this up. I love Panzer Corps as much as the next guy but this is just too big for me to ignore without ranting about it... Lol
Sorry if I sound like a Crazy Conspirator or Angry Historian but I just want people to know about this! Please forgive me if I'm offending you in any way! (Both if you love Canada and Panzer Corps )

[Kamerer]

Honestly, it never bugged me.

But to think of it logically:

a) There is no practical landing site on the Canadian Atlantic coast, nor is logistics friendly.
b) There's no strategic goal there, nor is it a practical route to any strategic goal.

So if your goal is conquering America, Canada is a pretty poor route if you are coming from Europe. Once you have American choke points in hand, Canada itself can't resist. There's just no need to take it if removing the US as a threat is the goal.

[LandMarine47]

Honestly, it never bugged me.

But to think of it logically:

a) There is no practical landing site on the Canadian Atlantic coast, nor is logistics friendly.
b) There's no strategic goal there, nor is it a practical route to any strategic goal.

So if your goal is conquering America, Canada is a pretty poor route if you are coming from Europe. Once you have American choke points in hand, Canada itself can't resist. There's just no need to take it if removing the US as a threat is the goal.

Hmm good counter points I agree with you but Canada still does have some significant leverage if you ask me.

[KeldorKatarn]

To be honest... if the UK had fallen, I doubt Canada would have played any role at all. I'm pretty sure that there's a 90% chance the empire nations would have sued for peace. Yes Churchill would have MAYBE retreated, but on the other hand... how? With a German sealion successful Germany might have had such control over the atlantic and the air over britain that he would have simply been captured. But even if that escapae had been successful... how much would he have been able to do? He'd be an exile government without any industrial capacity left. By the time you beat the UK in Panzer Corps the US aren't even in the war yet. They're neutral. So what is Churchill supposed to do in Canada? sit around and still shout "Never surrender"? I don't think the empire nations would still listen after seeing the british islands fall. That would be devastating and shocking to the world. Also the empire nations like Australia and India would have their hands full with the Japanese. Without support from the UK, how are they supposed to defend themselves. India would probably fall, maybe also Australia if the US along cannot intervene in time. if Canada would stay in the war, surely they'd sue for peace with germany, which at this point is a completely lost cause, and ship everything they have to the pacific to make sure the rest of the empire isn't steamrolled by the Japanese.

[robman]

This question (to which we shall never know the answer, thank heavens) is testament to the fact that wars are usually won and lost by political decisions, maneuvers, and personalities, not military battles. France surrendered (instead of fighting from North Africa) because much of its political elite hated one another more than the Germans. Britain stayed in the war largely because of the power of Churchill's personality--given the easy terms that would have accompanied a separate peace, it was not what most leaders would have done. The USSR failed to collapse because its political system was more stable than anyone (including Stalin) expected at the time. The United States would almost certainly not have entered the war against Germany if the UK had concluded a separate peace, with or without Sealion. Factors like this cannot be factored into a game like Panzer Corps.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

I have noticed that on the 2nd USA scenario (Midwest, I think) , there are about 4 Canadian Infantry with Bren Carriers and you can see one or two cities with Canadian Flags at the top of the map.

What would be more logical is that the 1st scenario has the scope of Southern USA to Ottawa, with most landing sites in the south, and then you have to have one force tackle Fort Knox and other stuff, and one scale the coastline of the US, then go north and take Ottawa

- BNC

[LandMarine47]

I have noticed that on the 2nd USA scenario (Midwest, I think) , there are about 4 Canadian Infantry with Bren Carriers and you can see one or two cities with Canadian Flags at the top of the map.

What would be more logical is that the 1st scenario has the scope of Southern USA to Ottawa, with most landing sites in the south, and then you have to have one force tackle Fort Knox and other stuff, and one scale the coastline of the US, then go north and take Ottawa

- BNC

This does make lots of sense. Unless those Canadians defected to join the defense of America And in West Coast a race to Vancouver in addition to San Francisco and Seattle. Finish off both Canada and the US at the same time (even though their Military is a joke at this point)

[Kirby]

One thing to note. The race for West Coast is about capturing the almost finished A-bomb, not about conquering Northern America. The bomb would secure "peace" in unruly countries, but I very much doubt the Nazis would've stayed in UK, let alone US.

[huertgenwald]

...but I very much doubt the Nazis would've stayed in UK, let alone US.

Care to elaborate ?

Admitedly, US is huge... and hard to fully control, So maybe only specific regions (Upper East Cost, Chicago, Detroit ?)
But I'm pretty "confident" if they had conquered the UK, they would have stayed (with a puppet government like in the book "SS-GB")

[KeldorKatarn]

I agree the entire US invasion is completely fictional. There were never any concrete plans to invade the US, not were the Nazis even remotely interested. The target was always russia, and the goal was colonization. Even france and great britain were never supposed to be annexed, they were attack because they declared war and germany no longer had any other choice. In case of a UK surrender the Nazis probably would have put a Nazi friendly government in place and maybe leave some troops there, but that would have been it.

As for the A-Bomb... well, that needs to be delivered first. How was the US supposed to bomb germany without any air based in the UK or anywhere close in the atlantic. With the UK, its royal navy and airforce out of the way, Germany would have had complete control of the any sea approaches and the air space, probably keeping some air bases along the french atlantic coast and in great britain, potentially even annexing the port of Scapa Flow as a submarine and naval base, and probably also leaving some in Norway.

With an uninterrupted German development of jet fighters and recon planes there would have been no way for the US to get a bomb delivered. not to mention Germany might actually have been able to develop their own soon after, and.. using their rocket research, potentially developing an intercontinental missile to deliver it, in which case the US would be in an even worse position.

Germany would not have been in any position to attack the US mainland. The economy was worn down and had to be stabilized, all the conquered territory in the USSR would have had to be rebuilt, the infrastructure improved etc... that would have kept germany busy for at least the rest of the 20th century. germany would however surely have worked on getting a rocket program focused to be able to threaten any remaining major force from afar. With Germany potentially replacing the US and USSR as the first to enter space with satelites, that would have even worsened the situation for the US. Some information would probably have been leaked and together with their own scientists the US would probably have developed their own stuff at some point, maybe the Japanese also. Whether without the resources the US had after winning the war, they would have been able to win a space race, is probably doubtful. But another space race and cold war would definitely have started. And I'm pretty convinced Germany would have won that one. it would have had the USSRs resources combined with a solid modern industrial base in the center of europa and potential full access to the middle east. Such a combination would have been near impossible to collapse any time soon. It is likely however that the system itself would still have collapsed at some point, but that wouldn#t have caused the economic downfall that befell Russia when the USSR was dissolved, not with the extremely good economic base that germany would have had at that point, not to mention its leadership role in science.

my personal guess is, that such a cold war would have eventually cooled down, a peaceful revolution would have started in Germany just like it did in east-germany in the late 80s and things would have shifted, with germany slowly accepting autonomous status of certain formerly annexed regions, and a potential european initiative being started.

Whether the world including the later german generations would have ever found out about the holocaust... that part is open for interpretation I guess...

[LandMarine47]

I agree with you that a invasion of the US mainland would be the largest Invasion in History. Larger than D-Day and Operation Downfall combined. The entire German Army would have to be present and with any Airbases from which Paratroopers could fly from out of Range it would be a VERY if not impossible task even the boldest of German Generals would refuse command of the force. So both sides would have to sue for peace but there is one very crucial Fact. The Alliance with Japan. Germany never wanted the Soviet Far East just the rich European Country. Never anything past the Urals. If the US and Germany were to ask for negotiations Japan would most likely be present along with Mussolini and Italy. If a peace were to signed Japan's War Goals would have to be met so as Effectively all of the US Gains in the Pacific would be lost as well as their own colonies. If the war had gone so long where as Japan's military power was severely weakened where the war could easily be won the US would have never signed any peace treaties. A white peace where nothing gained or lost could be possible but Japan would never accept that. So America Could finish off Japan and after that could sign peace with Germany. But if the Afika Korps were to go as far as India the Germans could easily Supply troops and material to the Japanese if not the Akrika Korps would be changed to the "Pacific Korps" with this much Germans and their new Aircraft Carrier the Americans would have to accept peace therms. Thus a Cold War between German Europe, Italian Africa and Japanese Asia would ensue with a Vengeful America planning to retake their lost Cores.

[KeldorKatarn]

Japan never was very interested in pacific regions either. They had to fight the US yes, but their main goal was the asian mainland and its resources. So Japan would probably have been just fine with conceding some pacific regions (as long as those don't pose a threat to the Japanese island) if in turn they could do whatever they wanted in Asia.

You forgot one major power: China, which was somewhat allied with the US.

[LandMarine47]

Japan never was very interested in pacific regions either. They had to fight the US yes, but their main goal was the asian mainland and its resources. So Japan would probably have been just fine with conceding some pacific regions (as long as those don't pose a threat to the Japanese island) if in turn they could do whatever they wanted in Asia.

You forgot one major power: China, which was somewhat allied with the US.

Yes I don't know what to think of China. Honestly China never possessed a true threat to anyone. In the case of a conquered Soviet Union China would have a Massive Border with the German and they could freely invade China for the same reasons as Japan. Thus creating a even Bigger Cold War and due to the nature of the Governments war would eventually come. So a potential 3rd World war between Fascist Germany and Italy against Imperial Japan. The European powers would win hands down because of the Japans lack of a good tank doctrine to combat the German Panzers. They would have to depend on their Navy and Infantry. The Air war would be quite brutal but the Germans would win due to their advanced Jets fighters.
Anyway if China was faced with a 2 front war whatever influence with the people Nationalist China had would fall and the Communists would rise. Basically a Vietnam on a Global Scale. And with time the soviets would launch a Massive rebellion. I wouldn't be surprised if all of Europe revolted against the Fascists for a Communist Government. So either a 3rd World war or a massive series of revolts all over the World. America would effectively be the last Democratic Power in the world.

[robman]

Wow, this is a great thread! My $0.02:

(1) It's hard for me to imagine how war between the US and Japan could have been avoided, no matter what the outcome in Europe: the two countries' (neo)imperialist goals worked directly against each other. Moreover, given the Japanese doctrine of the "decisive battle," I don't see how total war between the US and Japan could have been avoided, once war broke out. The very kind of battle that the Japanese military thought would be decisive--one involving a major, humiliating defeat of the US surface fleet--was the one sure recipe for keeping the US in the fight until the bitter end. And given the balance of economic power, the end of that conflict was bound to bitter for Japan.

(2) On the other hand, it's easy for me to imagine the US not going to war with Nazi Germany: in fact, I would go so far as to say that from the perspective of grand political-economic history, this was an unlikely and even surprising outcome. That it happened at all (in our timeline) hinged on personalities--mainly Churchill and Roosevelt--and chance. If the UK had concluded a separate peace, the terms would have been easy, because Hitler was not prepared to invade Britain. There would have been no German troops in London. The UK would have been forced to agree to stay out of the Continent and return Germany's pre-World War I colonies, for sure. Beyond that, the outcome would have depended on the two sides' relative skill at negotiating brinksmanship. But there was nothing that the UK could have ceded that would have threatened core US interests as most of the elite perceived them at that time, and once the UK was out, so too would have been serious chance of the US invading Germany, or vice versa, prior to the appearance of the atomic bomb.

(3) With the UK out of the picture, the invasion of the USSR--which depended for its success upon the collapse of the Soviet political system--would have been a much more near-run thing than it was in our timeline. But the Soviet system proved surprisingly resilient in circumstances very nearly as dire. Maybe the Soviet government would have survived, maybe not. If it survived, it might have concluded a separate peace, ceding some territory in the west--or maybe not. The relative progress of Germany and the USSR/Russia toward the atomic bomb might have made all the difference.

(4) My personal favorite among the counterfactual histories is Robert Harris's "Fatherland." Check it out if you have not read it already.

[Kirby]

...but I very much doubt the Nazis would've stayed in UK, let alone US.

Care to elaborate ?

Realistically, a straight-up occupation doesn't work for longer periods. Sooner or later the resistance becomes too costly to maintain it. Ironically, large countries (China, USSR, US) would be easier to control than medium sized countries like France, because of large internal differences. In case of US, I presume the east coast would remain under occupation for a prolonged period, while a puppet White Supremacist government (not unlikely, I'm afraid) would control the rest. West Coast would probably be initially under Japanese occupation.

In case of Britain, I presume the Nazi propaganda would work hard to turn it into an ally. If that fails, it would probably play on its weaknesses and carve it up (turn Ireland and Scotland into independent states) and isolate it completely (being on an island has its disadvantages too).

And USSR would suffer the worst fate of all. As it would be impossible to "hold", it would also be carved up, with people west of the Volga suffering the worst mass murders and exodus. Arable land would be granted to German veterans as was the case in Rome and the remaining Slavic population would be enslaved.

In any case, as much as I like playing the underdog, even a brief nazi win would've been be a disaster of Mongol proportions.