Use of crossbows

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

Having just read the rules I focussed on the POAs for the various shooting weapons and was struck by the apparent relative lack of usefulness of crossbows.

The benefits and disadvantages of equipping a BG with bows compared to a BG with crossbows seems to be:

(a) Range: no difference p81
(b) POA
(i) Bow has better POA than crossbow against: unprotected or protected >1 rank cavalry, unprotected heavy/medium foot, 'any other foot',
(ii) Bow has worse POA than crossbow against: cataphracts/armoured knights, elephants, heavily armoured foot
(iii) Bow has same POA as crossbow against: armoured cavalry >1 rank, armoured knights, battle wagons, armoured foot.

Longbows are obviously more effective than crossbows.

So, to the question: what was the advantage to western mediaeval armies from the early 12th to 14th centuries (or I suppose to the Chinese though I know little about these) to equipping foot troops with crossbow?

(i) the change in the main target from armoured knights to heavily armoured knights (full mail and caparisons etc) and that shooting at levy infantry was less important?
(ii) that crossbows had advantages in siege warfare which was more common than open battle?
(iii) the relative ease of training compared to a bow?
(iv) one or more other reasons?

Regards

[hammy]

The main reason that medieval armies used large numbers of corssbows was simply that it is far easier to train someone to use a crossbow than a longbow.

From an effectiveness POV crossbow are just as effective as bow against armoured foot and most cavalry. In the medieval period there are a lot of armoured troops about so they look to be a good game choice too.

Of course crossbows cost less points than bow so surely that makes up for their slightly lower effectiveness overall anyway.

[carlos]

I think you hit the nail on the head. You needed a weapon with better armour penetration and unless you had time to teach and train troops to use either longbows or eastern-style bows then the crossbow was much better. Virtually anyone could use a crossbow and against the types of targets you'd find in a Western battlefield it wasn't that much worse than a bow or better in some cases. The crossbow, more than the longbow, was the great equaliser. A peasant who trained infrequently with his crossbow could drop a knight with his weapon.

[hazelbark]

The big problem I am having is how to defend the crossbow battlegroups from enemy BGs getting into melee. They are very vulnerable to close combat.

[hammy]

The big problem I am having is how to defend the crossbow battlegroups from enemy BGs getting into melee. They are very vulnerable to close combat.

I find that pike can do the job quite well. If you advance the pike past the crossbow and across the front of the crosbow slightly you can limit or remove the enemy ability to get at the crossbowmen.

Alternatively use a Medieval Danish or Swedish army

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

Good points above.

Of course crossbows cost less points than bow so surely that makes up for their slightly lower effectiveness overall anyway.

I thought bow, bow* and crossbow cost the same i.e. 1 point {p149}?

Regards

[hammy]

Greetings

Good points above.

Of course crossbows cost less points than bow so surely that makes up for their slightly lower effectiveness overall anyway.

I thought bow, bow* and crossbow cost the same i.e. 1 point {p149}?

Regards

Ahh, the problems of having been a playtester for so long.... Crossbow used to be very different and I seem to recall cost nothing for foot. You are ofcourse right, it costs the same as bow* and bow for foot although mounted crossbow is cheaper than mounted bow.

Still crossbow is:

* The same as or better than bow against all mounted except protected or unprotected cavalry in deep formations (something that very rarely presents as a target in my experience)

* Better against heavily armoured foot

* Better against elephants

* The same against armoured foot

* Worse against protected and unprotected foot and foot skirmishers.

Overall perhaps not quite as good as bow but still in a medieval environment perfectly useful.

Mounted crossbowmen are great and they ARE cheaper than mounted archers.

[Scrumpy]

My only experience so far of crossbows was a unit taking on 2 BGs of bow. Needless to say my opponents crossbows broke due to all the fire, and sadly for my opponent they managed to carry off a unit of knights who failed their CT and a unit of light foot the knights rode through with them in their rout.

I am using a load of crossbows today in a Castillian v Portuguese game, be interesting to see how they fair in period.

Scrumpy the cruel.

[irondog068]

The reason the Chinese used crossbow is the reason everyone else pointed out. Point and shoot weapon. For some reason the Japanese stopped using the crossbow before the Gempi Wars and went to the Bow (Long bow) which was the favorite weapon of the Samurai till the 1300.

But the level of training of a longbow was very high. Which is why the Chinese and Japanese went to massed hand guns sood as they could make them.

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

My only experience so far of crossbows was a unit taking on 2 BGs of bow. Needless to say my opponents crossbows broke due to all the fire, and sadly for my opponent they managed to carry off a unit of knights who failed their CT and a unit of light foot the knights rode through with them in their rout.Scrumpy the cruel.

Oof. Bad news when that happens.

It will be interesting to see how you get on with your crossbows.

Regards

[davidandlynda]

To continue my theme ,use them as LF,BG's of 6 still get 3 dice enough to niggle away at KN's and can evade as well
David

[Scrumpy]

Greetings

My only experience so far of crossbows was a unit taking on 2 BGs of bow. Needless to say my opponents crossbows broke due to all the fire, and sadly for my opponent they managed to carry off a unit of knights who failed their CT and a unit of light foot the knights rode through with them in their rout.Scrumpy the cruel.

Oof. Bad news when that happens.

It will be interesting to see how you get on with your crossbows.

Regards

Well I am trying LH, LF & MF crossbows, one lot should work ?

[shall]

When we looked at Corssbows it was clear that they were mainly provided becuase they were easy to use/train people to use. A longbow by contrast takes huge strength and skill.

There are few useful data points from history:

a) the longbows outshot genoese crossbowmen when they came head to head - the best of the corssbowmen
b) the chinese reckined they could stop a mounted charge with crossbows and that they were most effective at that (probably because the penetratio was sufficient to down a horse completely when a normal bow would wound)
c) the rate of fire of a crossbow is about 1/2 that of a bowman and much less that of a well trained bowman
d) the armour penetration of crossbows and longbows was about the same
e) japanese bows were lowq velocity but the users were highly skilled

Overall therefore we have set Xbow up to be outshot by bowmen in a head to head but to be effective agaisnt mounted troops or anything with lots of armour. Mounted corssbowmen are rather effective troop types - one of the few that can harass mediveal knights in fact.

Samurai will be Bw not LBw.

Si

[Scrumpy]

Pedro the Cruel managed to take the Portuguese apart today, although the crossbow did very little on either side.

My Castillian LH managed to fight as overlaps against Kn and even get a kill, but shooting nada. Both sides had a unit of MF crossbow that were routing, mine from fighting MF & LH, my opponents from breaking after a unit of Knights rode them and a unit of archers down in 1 round.

The LF crossbow got the worst of some shooting and routed too. All in all, crossbows might do some damage, but nothing much today.

It was left to the knightly lance to decide the issue as one BG of mine got the better of the die rolls and managed to see off the flower of Portuguese chivalry.

[Fenton]

Justs to continue this, a little as I havnt got the rules or lists yet, can the croosbow have Pavises?, the croosbow in RL done in Modern tests actually out ranges the Longbow in Penetration tests but obviously had a far lower rate of fire hence the two man Pavise teams that the Genonese used quite a few times, and of course the French knights running roughshod over them didnt help either

[hazelbark]

Mounted crossbowmen are great and they ARE cheaper than mounted archers.

Without a doubt these are super nifty BGs when they are swordsmen too.