Hi All,
i'm PG veteran an just found PC some days agao. Currently playing the GC Minsk scenario.
My other hobby are WW2 planes, especially german stuff. Technical and taktical whise. Betat tester in flight sims and more.
During the first campaings i was surprised that he Spit I had an higher attack value than then 109E. I guess it is the main produced variante E3/4 that should be simulated here.
Speaking on firepower, the 109E3/4 was at last on par with the Spit I if not even higher. These 20mm mine shells really had a punch against fighters and bombers. The cal.303 of the Spitfire and Hurrican are ok against fighers but where not really successfull against a bomber compared to bigger caliber guns.
The air defens value is, in my eyes, the possibility to envade an enemy attack. Here the Spit had the advantage of smaller turning radius compared to the 109, where the 109 was able to outroll and outdive the Spit I.
Just from historical plane comparison, the Spit I and 109E should have the same values everywhere. Maybe the 109E could have 1 ammo less because the 109 just had 60 rounds for the effective 20mm guns.
Later i got the 109F, i guess the F4 because it was the most produced variant. I was nearly shocked to see that the 109F just has an Air attack of 12...2 less than the 109E.
Well...it had just 1 20mm gun compared to the 109E, but the one had an higher rate of fire, muzzle velocity, and much more ammo than the 109E (200 compared to the 60 rounds per gun in the E). Other point is, that with all weapons in line of the fuselage, the hitpower was on spot..and not spread out like most wing weapons do.
With lots of "good will" i would give here no more than 1 attack less than the 109E..but even this is too much.
I haven't seen the stats for alle the mid to late war fighters..so no comment here.
Maybe someone could give me some background infos how the current values have been built. Maybe they have to be updated to the real planes performance....
greetings
Wastel
Bf109E vs 109F vs Spit I...opinions...
Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design
Re: Bf109E vs 109F vs Spit I...opinions...
Hello wastel!
Just to add in to this discussion, there is another critical element to air combat and the performance of air units in Panzer Corps, and that is the initiative attribute. Some of those improvements that the 109F has over the 109E are calculated into the initiative of those two aircraft, which is why the 109F at 11 initiative is effectively having roughly 50% more initiative than the 109E at 7 initiative (7+3.5 is just short of 11).
When you consider the above, and how important initiative is in Panzer Corps, the 109E and 109F stats make good solid sense. As a comparison, try to take a 110F with its 15 air attack value up against a Spitfire I and see what the odds prediction says (hint, the 110F loses badly). Just because it has higher attack than both the 109E and 109F doesn't mean much because of the importance of initiative. This will become much more prevalent during late war, when the attack and initiative values of fighters and especially jets really climb.
As a side note, the 109E and 109F actually make for actually compelling upgrades with the stats as they are. Where as most units have a clear pattern of 'late model = better', the 109E and 109F do not have an obvious superior. The 109F has lots of bells and whistles like fuel, movement, defense, and initiative all superior to the 109E, but the 109E has the big punch. I know some players who all turn their 109s into F models as soon as the F is available, while I actually prefer the 109E and mostly ignore the F entirely, only upgrading 109s when the G model is available. I find that while the 109F is great for keeping new units alive with its defense and initiative, the 109E and its shortcoming of less initiative can be compensated with mass attack strategies.
Just to add in to this discussion, there is another critical element to air combat and the performance of air units in Panzer Corps, and that is the initiative attribute. Some of those improvements that the 109F has over the 109E are calculated into the initiative of those two aircraft, which is why the 109F at 11 initiative is effectively having roughly 50% more initiative than the 109E at 7 initiative (7+3.5 is just short of 11).
When you consider the above, and how important initiative is in Panzer Corps, the 109E and 109F stats make good solid sense. As a comparison, try to take a 110F with its 15 air attack value up against a Spitfire I and see what the odds prediction says (hint, the 110F loses badly). Just because it has higher attack than both the 109E and 109F doesn't mean much because of the importance of initiative. This will become much more prevalent during late war, when the attack and initiative values of fighters and especially jets really climb.
As a side note, the 109E and 109F actually make for actually compelling upgrades with the stats as they are. Where as most units have a clear pattern of 'late model = better', the 109E and 109F do not have an obvious superior. The 109F has lots of bells and whistles like fuel, movement, defense, and initiative all superior to the 109E, but the 109E has the big punch. I know some players who all turn their 109s into F models as soon as the F is available, while I actually prefer the 109E and mostly ignore the F entirely, only upgrading 109s when the G model is available. I find that while the 109F is great for keeping new units alive with its defense and initiative, the 109E and its shortcoming of less initiative can be compensated with mass attack strategies.
Re: Bf109E vs 109F vs Spit I...opinions...
Hello wastel, I’m using my own formulae for stats in the game. I will spare you details about calculations now, but I’ve used a 25% power reduction for wing compared to nose mounts which is of course highly debatable. The ammunition composition is following which is hopefully correct too:
Br .303 = AP:1, I:1
MG 151 = APT:1, HEIT:4
MG FF = API:1, HET:2 (not sure if this is correct because I only got the MG FF/M composition data)
MG FF/M & MG 151/20 = API:1, HET:1, HEM: 3
Here are the total gun power values of some common variants to give you a rough idea about their effectiveness:
Bf 109E1: 210.89 (2x MG 17 in nose, 2x MG 17 in wings)
Bf 109E3: 474.64 (2x MG 17 in nose, 2x MG FF in wings)
Bf 109E4: 749.28 (2x MG 17 in nose, 2x MG FF/M in wings)
Bf 109F1: 539.69 (1x MG FF/M and 2x MG 17 in the nose)
Bf 109F2: 391.64 (1x MG 115 and 2X MG 17 in the nose)
Bf 109F4: 764.22 (1x MG 115/20 and 2x MG 17 in the nose)
Spitfire I-II: 337.95 (8x Br .303 in the wings)
According to these gun power values alone, I might agree that the Spitfire I-II should have a higher AA value than the E1 which was used in Poland. The E3 however, which was built end of 1939, should have a higher value though.
It’s a bit tricky what aircraft variants should be used in the game in case of German ones which often changed armament, especially with the so many retrofits and kits later.
Like the F1 was more powerful then F2 at beginning, but F2 was later retrofitted with the MG 151/20 which was more powerful then the MG FF/M making it equal to the F4 then.
If someone want more plausibilty and fun, I guess there is no way around then to add a couple of more variants to the game by mods.
Br .303 = AP:1, I:1
MG 151 = APT:1, HEIT:4
MG FF = API:1, HET:2 (not sure if this is correct because I only got the MG FF/M composition data)
MG FF/M & MG 151/20 = API:1, HET:1, HEM: 3
Here are the total gun power values of some common variants to give you a rough idea about their effectiveness:
Bf 109E1: 210.89 (2x MG 17 in nose, 2x MG 17 in wings)
Bf 109E3: 474.64 (2x MG 17 in nose, 2x MG FF in wings)
Bf 109E4: 749.28 (2x MG 17 in nose, 2x MG FF/M in wings)
Bf 109F1: 539.69 (1x MG FF/M and 2x MG 17 in the nose)
Bf 109F2: 391.64 (1x MG 115 and 2X MG 17 in the nose)
Bf 109F4: 764.22 (1x MG 115/20 and 2x MG 17 in the nose)
Spitfire I-II: 337.95 (8x Br .303 in the wings)
According to these gun power values alone, I might agree that the Spitfire I-II should have a higher AA value than the E1 which was used in Poland. The E3 however, which was built end of 1939, should have a higher value though.
It’s a bit tricky what aircraft variants should be used in the game in case of German ones which often changed armament, especially with the so many retrofits and kits later.
Like the F1 was more powerful then F2 at beginning, but F2 was later retrofitted with the MG 151/20 which was more powerful then the MG FF/M making it equal to the F4 then.
If someone want more plausibilty and fun, I guess there is no way around then to add a couple of more variants to the game by mods.
Re: Bf109E vs 109F vs Spit I...opinions...
Nice stats Horst, mine are somewhat different, did you use the kinetic energy modified with the explosive power to compare them? I use the data from Tony Williams and Emmanuel Gustin, which gives a good relative indication, accurate enough for me at least. I made a rough index, not modified for the position/accuracy of the guns like you did.
Bf 109, 4x MG 17 :80
Bf 109, 2x MG 17, 2x MG FF/M : 292 (roughly the Bf 109 E in PzC)
Bf 109, 2x MG 17, 1x MG 151/20: 232 (PzC: Bf 109 F)
Bf 109, 2x MG 131, 1 x MG 151/20: 288 (PzC: Bf 109 G)
Some more:
Spitfire Mk I: 160
Spitfire Mk VB: 480
Spitfire Mk IX: 520
But this is only the relative destructiveness when a burst of gunfire hits something, and these numbers do not reflect the difference in tactics, training, gunsights, etc. The British had much better gunsights, the Germans only improved theirs very late in the war. This alone would have made a huge difference in effectiveness. The same goes for the effectiveness of any particular aircraft. This is a game were units fight each other, not single aircraft piloted by identically skilled persons.
So it is hard to draw conclusions from just looking at a few variables. Some examples: The early British combat tactics were very outdated, while the Germans had perfected a better system, so early in the war a unit of Hurricanes should have worse stats than later on, although the planes and pilots were the same.
Being able to turn slightly faster is not very important if your opponent can outclimb and outaccelerate you. This is the reason why 'outdated' P-40's were able to shoot down many Zero fighters, which excelled in dogfighting and should have won more often if you look at the paper stats.
Early Focke Wulfs 190 had poor high-altitude performance, which wasn't a problem on the Eastern Front, as many fights were at lower altitudes, but it performed less well against Western Allies simply because on average, the combat altitudes were higher on the Western Front.
P-38's were considered ineffective in Europe, but at the same time nearly unbeatable in the Pacific, while the much celebrated Mustang was not very effective in the same theater, only in Europe. Very hard to mod differences like that.
One of the difficulties in modding the stats is what the numbers should represent, and if they will lead to a 'historical' outcome. Accuracy and hitting power are very different but rolled into one 'Attack' number, and the effectiveness of that attack value is highly depended on the differences in initiative. Initiative in aerial combat is influenced by seeing the opponent before he is aware of you, having an altitude/speed advantage, effective range of the weapons, etc.
It is hard to say how exactly a number should be derived, as it may represent different qualtities and capabilities, even between similar units. All this needs to be represented by often just one little number, but so far I've found a lot of the standard values to be quite good. I have been playing around with the numbers, but since the latest patch introduced a table to mod the experience bonuses I will need to look at them again sometime.
Bf 109, 4x MG 17 :80
Bf 109, 2x MG 17, 2x MG FF/M : 292 (roughly the Bf 109 E in PzC)
Bf 109, 2x MG 17, 1x MG 151/20: 232 (PzC: Bf 109 F)
Bf 109, 2x MG 131, 1 x MG 151/20: 288 (PzC: Bf 109 G)
Some more:
Spitfire Mk I: 160
Spitfire Mk VB: 480
Spitfire Mk IX: 520
But this is only the relative destructiveness when a burst of gunfire hits something, and these numbers do not reflect the difference in tactics, training, gunsights, etc. The British had much better gunsights, the Germans only improved theirs very late in the war. This alone would have made a huge difference in effectiveness. The same goes for the effectiveness of any particular aircraft. This is a game were units fight each other, not single aircraft piloted by identically skilled persons.
So it is hard to draw conclusions from just looking at a few variables. Some examples: The early British combat tactics were very outdated, while the Germans had perfected a better system, so early in the war a unit of Hurricanes should have worse stats than later on, although the planes and pilots were the same.
Being able to turn slightly faster is not very important if your opponent can outclimb and outaccelerate you. This is the reason why 'outdated' P-40's were able to shoot down many Zero fighters, which excelled in dogfighting and should have won more often if you look at the paper stats.
Early Focke Wulfs 190 had poor high-altitude performance, which wasn't a problem on the Eastern Front, as many fights were at lower altitudes, but it performed less well against Western Allies simply because on average, the combat altitudes were higher on the Western Front.
P-38's were considered ineffective in Europe, but at the same time nearly unbeatable in the Pacific, while the much celebrated Mustang was not very effective in the same theater, only in Europe. Very hard to mod differences like that.
One of the difficulties in modding the stats is what the numbers should represent, and if they will lead to a 'historical' outcome. Accuracy and hitting power are very different but rolled into one 'Attack' number, and the effectiveness of that attack value is highly depended on the differences in initiative. Initiative in aerial combat is influenced by seeing the opponent before he is aware of you, having an altitude/speed advantage, effective range of the weapons, etc.
It is hard to say how exactly a number should be derived, as it may represent different qualtities and capabilities, even between similar units. All this needs to be represented by often just one little number, but so far I've found a lot of the standard values to be quite good. I have been playing around with the numbers, but since the latest patch introduced a table to mod the experience bonuses I will need to look at them again sometime.
Re: Bf109E vs 109F vs Spit I...opinions...
Hi all,
thanks for your comments. It's nice to see that here are people with very good knowledge about the topic. Surprised me in a positiv way!
I have to play on and lock how the combat stats of the fighters develop. Especially the infos from Tony Williams are a very good source.
With the current "undetailed" production lines in PC, the most produced basic variante should be simulated.
On the other hand, it would be cool to have more detailed plane trees...like an 109G6R6...more air attack value, less air defence and initiative.
Would be a bomber killer, but weak against enemy figher attacks.
I just let me be suprised within the upcoming matches...but now its time to take out the red army...lol
@all..btw i was really surprised to be attacked by a Mosquito during the Crete assault in th CG. Isn't this date a bit to early for the mosquito in operational service?
greetings
Wastel
thanks for your comments. It's nice to see that here are people with very good knowledge about the topic. Surprised me in a positiv way!
I have to play on and lock how the combat stats of the fighters develop. Especially the infos from Tony Williams are a very good source.
With the current "undetailed" production lines in PC, the most produced basic variante should be simulated.
On the other hand, it would be cool to have more detailed plane trees...like an 109G6R6...more air attack value, less air defence and initiative.
Would be a bomber killer, but weak against enemy figher attacks.
I just let me be suprised within the upcoming matches...but now its time to take out the red army...lol
@all..btw i was really surprised to be attacked by a Mosquito during the Crete assault in th CG. Isn't this date a bit to early for the mosquito in operational service?
greetings
Wastel
Re: Bf109E vs 109F vs Spit I...opinions...
Williams & Co. is also my chef to anything gun power related. Kinetic power, incendiary/explosive filler mixed with the ammo type ratio and shaken with fire rate gives my raw gun power cocktail. These values have to be additionally squeezed and pushed around by silly operators to something playable.
I try to avoid as many little details what could influence the values as much as possible. Problem is often that you don’t find all the necessarily information for every single plane out there. It starts with ammunition per gun and stops with general climb rate values. In particular the climb rate values bummer me often, because they are typically onto different ceilings and not on the same to compare each plane better.
Finding a proper agility bonus for each plane for AA and AD stats is indeed most challenging, and I can’t really say I’m very content with the one I have at moment. Such modifier is highly depending on real data sources; good luck finding such for each variant of aircraft. My aerodynamical know-how isn’t that great to invent a sophisticated formula anyway.
Finding a proper variant at the right time is important too if you like some historical correctness in your game. The Fw 190 is a good example. In vanilla, it's maybe the A-4 variant, although earlier variants were already in service early 1942 in France. The A-4 was the first one used on Eastern front where the Panzer Corps action mainly plays at that time. GC 42/43 West introduced early 1942 scenarios in France. What to do now? Introducing earlier variants for historical correctness but sacrificing it on the Eastern front then? Such research and decisions keep you busy.
I’ve also recently added the most common variants of German fighter planes to the game, because the upgrade options there were a lackluster and their changes significant enough to justify a place in the game. Even if it’s just a point more in Max Ammo, I think we all agree there that seeing a new upgrade appear enlightens every wargamer’s heart.
Yes, the Mosquito IV in Crete 41 is indeed a quite early appearance. Maybe it was an undocumented test flight, because it normally started operational in Summer 42.
The Mk IV shouldn’t be armed against aircrafts either, because they thought it could simply outrun any fighters.
I try to avoid as many little details what could influence the values as much as possible. Problem is often that you don’t find all the necessarily information for every single plane out there. It starts with ammunition per gun and stops with general climb rate values. In particular the climb rate values bummer me often, because they are typically onto different ceilings and not on the same to compare each plane better.
Finding a proper agility bonus for each plane for AA and AD stats is indeed most challenging, and I can’t really say I’m very content with the one I have at moment. Such modifier is highly depending on real data sources; good luck finding such for each variant of aircraft. My aerodynamical know-how isn’t that great to invent a sophisticated formula anyway.
Finding a proper variant at the right time is important too if you like some historical correctness in your game. The Fw 190 is a good example. In vanilla, it's maybe the A-4 variant, although earlier variants were already in service early 1942 in France. The A-4 was the first one used on Eastern front where the Panzer Corps action mainly plays at that time. GC 42/43 West introduced early 1942 scenarios in France. What to do now? Introducing earlier variants for historical correctness but sacrificing it on the Eastern front then? Such research and decisions keep you busy.
I’ve also recently added the most common variants of German fighter planes to the game, because the upgrade options there were a lackluster and their changes significant enough to justify a place in the game. Even if it’s just a point more in Max Ammo, I think we all agree there that seeing a new upgrade appear enlightens every wargamer’s heart.
Yes, the Mosquito IV in Crete 41 is indeed a quite early appearance. Maybe it was an undocumented test flight, because it normally started operational in Summer 42.
The Mk IV shouldn’t be armed against aircrafts either, because they thought it could simply outrun any fighters.