GJS'44 Campaign Main Thread - Final June 16th 1944 Tournamen

[Ranger]

OK I've finally caught up on reading all of this thread. You guys have had discussions and made subsequent decisions that should have included the Supreme Allied Commander but did not.

I'll summarize my positions here:

1. According to the rules, the attack on Abbaye is an Attack Against a Fortified Defender.

2. The german unit that was indicated as being Out Of Supply (OOS) on the June 11 Strategic Map, and therefore suffering a morale penalty, is OOS and suffering a morale penalty as indicated.

3. Why an attack against a stationary BG that hasn't received, nor sent, any units would be considered an ASD, but an attack against a unit that has just moved two complete squares to take the place of another unit that has just withdrawn from the same position in the same turn, would be consider an AFD, doesn't make any sense to me.

4. If the provided rules and the map were in error, and the above decisions are to stand, then all orders for the June 11 turn should be rescinded, the GM should publish the rules and the June 11 strategic map that are in effect, and both sides should submit new orders.

5. Whether or not a German unit is OOS and whether or not the attack on Abbaye is an AFD, these are fundamental and critical to the development of both the Allied and German strategies for the June 11 turn.

6. Both German and Allied Commanders should be consulted before any final decisions are made by the GM.


Sincerely,

Thomas
Allied Supreme Commander
Pacific Standard Time (GMT-8)

[GottaLove88s]

OK I've finally caught up on reading all of this thread. You guys have had discussions and made subsequent decisions that should have included the Supreme Allied Commander but did not.

I'll summarize my positions here:

1. According to the rules, the attack on Abbaye is an Attack Against a Fortified Defender.

2. The german unit that was indicated as being Out Of Supply (OOS) on the June 11 Strategic Map, and therefore suffering a morale penalty, is OOS and suffering a morale penalty as indicated.

3. Why an attack against a stationary BG that hasn't received, nor sent, any units would be considered an ASD, but an attack against a unit that has just moved two complete squares to take the place of another unit that has just withdrawn from the same position in the same turn, would be consider an AFD, doesn't make any sense to me.

4. If the provided rules and the map were in error, and the above decisions are to stand, then all orders for the June 11 turn should be rescinded, the GM should publish the rules and the June 11 strategic map that are in effect, and both sides should submit new orders.

5. Whether or not a German unit is OOS and whether or not the attack on Abbaye is an AFD, these are fundamental and critical to the development of both the Allied and German strategies for the June 11 turn.

6. Both German and Allied Commanders should be consulted before any final decisions are made by the GM.


Sincerely,

Thomas
Allied Supreme Commander
Pacific Standard Time (GMT-8)

Thomas, I've been here before and it's not fun.
Strongly recommend we process 'issues...' between commanders and GM... because we'll often find they're non issues.
Gents, since Thomas has done it this way, please feedback any input via your commanders NOT on this thread.
Am at a bus stop after a 10 hr shift, so will try to address ASAP...

[GottaLove88s]

While I'm at bus stop, see rule 4.31... which covers Abbaye

4.31 A BG that moves into a sector which an enemy BG is passing through or departing will fight an Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD).

[GottaLove88s]

Rule 4.33 covers relief movements

[GottaLove88s]

OK I've finally caught up on reading all of this thread. You guys have had discussions and made subsequent decisions that should have included the Supreme Allied Commander but did not.

No 'guys' have had any discussions since you became Allied 'CEO' Ranger. GJS'44 has been playing for months before you arrived, and discussions and rules were made in that time. For that, you'll have to catch up (but ask me about anything and happy to explain). But since you joined, nope, nothing changed. I promise. Trust me.

I'll summarize my positions here:

Unless we want to begin a thread where all sides develop 'positions', could we keep it to questions or proposals please?

1. According to the rules, the attack on Abbaye is an Attack Against a Fortified Defender.

4.31 A BG that moves into a sector which an enemy BG is passing through or departing will fight an Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD).

Prioritized Order List
18. 22/7Armor/ Ranger / Move to Caen (counterattack if Caen / 6AL/6ABN falls)

22/7 in Abbaye issued an order to depart Abbaye, therefore the attacking BG hits it while it is preparing to depart (that's why it's an ASD).

2. The german unit that was indicated as being Out Of Supply (OOS) on the June 11 Strategic Map, and therefore suffering a morale penalty, is OOS and suffering a morale penalty as indicated.

I'm about to eat dinner, so I haven't had a chance to look into this yet. At first glance, this is either (i) a case where Bayeux is genuinely out of supply, or (ii) somebody screwed up with the labelling and Bayeux is not out of supply. I do notice that the explanation of the red/orange/yellow frames has not made it to the Rules (and clearly, from Ranger's three posts on three threads, it now needs to be). That's my fault and I'll fix it. Meanwhile, I'm hoping I can leave a resolution of the Bayeux issue to our two commanders, Ranger and Cavehobbit, to agree between them. Other than Bayeux, everything appears fine to me (unless I've missed something else??? )

3. Why an attack against a stationary BG that hasn't received, nor sent, any units would be considered an ASD, but an attack against a unit that has just moved two complete squares to take the place of another unit that has just withdrawn from the same position in the same turn, would be consider an AFD, doesn't make any sense to me.

4.33 Relief or Swaps. During the strategic movement phase, a BG may relieve or swap sectors with a friendly BG, by moving into that sector and then permitting the occupant to exit. For a swap/relief to be successful, both the entry and the exit movements must be completed before an enemy attacks. If the swap/relief is successful, subsequent attacks will take place as an Attack vs a Fortified Defence (AFD), as if the newcomer had already been in position. However, if an enemy attacks before the new force can enter, the current occupant will face an Attack vs Surprised Defence (ASD). If an enemy attacks after the new force has entered but before the current occupant has departed, the new entrant will face a Meeting Engagement (ME).

You've missed that II/12/12SS is relieving 192/21. Relief rule attached

4. If the provided rules and the map were in error, and the above decisions are to stand, then all orders for the June 11 turn should be rescinded, the GM should publish the rules and the June 11 strategic map that are in effect, and both sides should submit new orders.

Ranger, If you want to keep things amicable, strongly recommend you don't tell people what they should and shouldn't do, least of all on public and team threads. I'll let you decide who is in error here, and make a mature proposal for what we could consider doing about it.

5. Whether or not a German unit is OOS and whether or not the attack on Abbaye is an AFD, these are fundamental and critical to the development of both the Allied and German strategies for the June 11 turn.

I'm not sure what new facts this point adds?

6. Both German and Allied Commanders should be consulted before any final decisions are made by the GM.

Rule discussions are usually voted on by everyone (see past votes). Commanders have to trust the GM to apply the rules fairly, or trust the GM to be fair enough to seek input from commanders/players if rules don't exist to cover a new eventuality.

Ranger when you were trawling through the full thread, you missed something absolutely crucial. See the Conflict Resolution process below... My fault again. I now realise I would be wise to enshrine this in the rules. Believe me, it's quicker and easier if we all keep it calm and behave like listening adults (strongly recommend you ask Allied team mates Jcb989 and K9mike what the alternative turns out to be).

Let's do this fairly. Here's GJS'44's new Conflict Resolution process to ensure that we all spend more time on war, war, not jaw, jaw...

1. Any commander can raise an "issue" by privately emailing the GM, cc-ing his opposing commander.
2. In his email, the commander should state the nature of the issue, explain any unfair advantages/disadvantages to either side, and recommend a solution.
3. Players involved or affected may wish to input to their commander in order to contribute to this email.
4. His opponent may respond to this first email, if he wishes to, cc-ing the GM.
5. The opposing commander may wish to consult his own team, by private email or private thread, to seek their input.
6. The GM is free to comment once both commanders have swapped these emails (each commander and GM is only permitted ONE email).
7. At that point, the GM will conduct a vote of the three of us (2 commanders, 1 GM).
8. If necessary, the rules will be improved, or other changes will be made, to reflect the result of this vote.
9. If this vote is tied, then the GM will take the issue out to a broader vote of all players.

[GottaLove88s]

So... quick recap...

Both teams submitted valid orders
These have been processed and published
We're (almost) ready to play our battles for June 11th

Despite assertions to the otherwise, absolutely no conspiracies here (Adolf, stay out of sight, darn you! )

Ranger is going to make a proposal to Cavehobbit & I to resolve whether Bayeux is out of supply or if somebody cocked up (I'm not sure which until I have time to look into it, but I trust our two, highly passionate, commanders to find a workable solution for the rest of us )

For now, I'll suspend work on the maps... until I'm sure we're going to continue with the GJS'44 campaign (been here before, and if tempers/egos get the better of folks, or ill considered posts get published, we can be grounded for weeks... Strongly recommend commanders privately discuss with their experienced players, so we can get this thing moving again)

Thanks guys!

[GottaLove88s]

CONFIRMED BATTLES - JUNE 11th

ABBAYE d'ARDENNE - ASD - II/22/21 (Morge4) attack/no move 22/7 (Ranger) - cancelling 22/7s re-inforcement of Caen and subsequent move
TRUNGY - M.E. - 2CDN (Rblancha) vs 192/21 (Honour79)
LEBISEY WOODS - AFD - 1/79 (iProp) attack/no move II/736/716 (Landmarine)
BRETTEVILLE - AFD - 27/3 (Jcb) attack/no move reliving II/12/12SS (Honour79)
PEGASUS - AFD - 30/79 (Rblancha) attack/no move 914/352 (Mlazar)

RANGER TO PROPOSE WHAT TO DO ABOUT THIS ONE

BAYEUX - AFD - 9/3 (Ranger) attack II/744/711 (Cavehobbit)
Ironic that's its Ranger v CaveHobbit too, eh?

POTENTIAL BATTLES

5al/6 in Pegasus?
25/12SS in Pegasus?
8/3 in Bretteville?
9/3cdn in Lebisey?

[Ranger]

Gentlemen. I'd like to point out that the entire thread related to the implementation/integration of the June 11 Orders, and the discussion related to the interpretation of rules and the subsequent decisions that I am addressing, were made transparently on this thread. I apologize if it was inappropriate to post my concerns within the same thread even if I did write them in what I thought was a reasonable, "matter of fact", and respectful way.

Supreme Allied Commander
Thomas
PST (-8 hours GMT)

OK I've finally caught up on reading all of this thread. You guys have had discussions and made subsequent decisions that should have included the Supreme Allied Commander but did not.

I'll summarize my positions here:

1. According to the rules, the attack on Abbaye is an Attack Against a Fortified Defender.

2. The german unit that was indicated as being Out Of Supply (OOS) on the June 11 Strategic Map, and therefore suffering a morale penalty, is OOS and suffering a morale penalty as indicated.

3. Why an attack against a stationary BG that hasn't received, nor sent, any units would be considered an ASD, but an attack against a unit that has just moved two complete squares to take the place of another unit that has just withdrawn from the same position in the same turn, would be consider an AFD, doesn't make any sense to me.

4. If the provided rules and the map were in error, and the above decisions are to stand, then all orders for the June 11 turn should be rescinded, the GM should publish the rules and the June 11 strategic map that are in effect, and both sides should submit new orders.

5. Whether or not a German unit is OOS and whether or not the attack on Abbaye is an AFD, these are fundamental and critical to the development of both the Allied and German strategies for the June 11 turn.

6. Both German and Allied Commanders should be consulted before any final decisions are made by the GM.


Sincerely,

Thomas
Allied Supreme Commander
Pacific Standard Time (GMT-8)

Thomas, I've been here before and it's not fun.
Strongly recommend we process 'issues...' between commanders and GM... because we'll often find they're non issues.
Gents, since Thomas has done it this way, please feedback any input via your commanders NOT on this thread.
Am at a bus stop after a 10 hr shift, so will try to address ASAP...

[cavehobbit]

Map updated. Battles in Bretteville are ME nothing else.

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=38844&p=412783#p412783

[Ranger]

Jon, could you please repeat the new rules we've discussed a few pages ago. I think it would be good for all of us to be reminded.

Agreed

[GottaLove88s]

Hey guys, Ranger has recommended that I take a break for my health... He generously overstates it, so no I'm not particularly sleep deprived, lol , but as I explained when I tried to step down from GJS'44 a few weeks back, there's a lot on my plate right now... I confess, I don't enjoy it when new commanders post lengthy complaints on multiple public forums before they try to resolve their non-issues privately, but I realise that's just how some people deal with things... and I need to learn to react more wisely ... Life's too short and it's really not that important... With time squeezed, I should prioritise on the things I enjoy most... I'd really like to concentrate on the Pacific mod that Amaris & I have been toying with (you should see Amaris' brilliant progress on this. It's truly awesome!! )... My ultimate aim is to create a GJS'44 style manyplayer campaign, island hopping marines and "sea bee" engineers back and forth across the Pacific, supported by USN and IJN fleets of carriers, battleships, heavy and light cruisers, destroyers, submarines, transports, tankers, Vals & Zeroes, Corsairs & Avengers... You'll all be welcome when it's done ... Of course, GJS'44 D-Day will continue, in a better and stronger form, most likely with Ranger stepping up to GM (he has a military background and will do things rather more realistically than I could ever dream of )... Good luck guys. I'll definitely be watching. And will be happy to play the occasional battle for either side...

[Honour79]

Oookay...?

So how will this continue? An explanation in plain English is fine with me.

I'm very sorry that you wanna step down as GM GL88. I don't know what I should do... Break my Ipad in two?
Perhaps I should be happy for the great battles you have constructed for all of us?

Many humble thanks and I hope you change your mind!

[LandMarine47]

Hey guys, Ranger has recommended that I take a break for my health... He generously overstates it, so no I'm not particularly sleep deprived, lol , but as I explained when I tried to step down from GJS'44 a few weeks back, there's a lot on my plate right now... I confess, I don't enjoy it when new commanders post lengthy complaints on multiple public forums before they try to resolve their non-issues privately, but I realise that's just how some people deal with things... and I need to learn to react more wisely ... Life's too short and it's really not that important... With time squeezed, I should prioritise on the things I enjoy most... I'd really like to concentrate on the Pacific mod that Amaris & I have been toying with (you should see Amaris' brilliant progress on this. It's truly awesome!! )... My ultimate aim is to create a GJS'44 style manyplayer campaign, island hopping marines and "sea bee" engineers back and forth across the Pacific, supported by USN and IJN fleets of carriers, battleships, heavy and light cruisers, destroyers, submarines, transports, tankers, Vals & Zeroes, Corsairs & Avengers... You'll all be welcome when it's done ... Of course, GJS'44 D-Day will continue, in a better and stronger form, most likely with Ranger stepping up to GM (he has a military background and will do things rather more realistically than I could ever dream of )... Good luck guys. I'll definitely be watching. And will be happy to play the occasional battle for either side...

You will be missed. Just come back when you finish with your toys but if Ranger is GM he can't be Supreme Commander considering he has access to both secret forums. Who will step up to the plate?

[Ranger]

I haven't actually decided about being GM yet. So I don't have access to the secret German side thread. (or at least I shouldn't).

Is it necessary for the GM to have access to either of the secret forums?

There's no need to sort out the need for a new GM until after the June 11 turn has completed.

Besides I'm hoping GottaLove88s will kill a couple of his patients and get fired/sacked from his hospital. Then he'll have plenty of time to be our GM. That's not selfish of me is it?

Cheers,

Thomas
Allied Supreme Commander

Hey guys, Ranger has recommended that I take a break for my health... He generously overstates it, so no I'm not particularly sleep deprived, lol , but as I explained when I tried to step down from GJS'44 a few weeks back, there's a lot on my plate right now... I confess, I don't enjoy it when new commanders post lengthy complaints on multiple public forums before they try to resolve their non-issues privately, but I realise that's just how some people deal with things... and I need to learn to react more wisely ... Life's too short and it's really not that important... With time squeezed, I should prioritise on the things I enjoy most... I'd really like to concentrate on the Pacific mod that Amaris & I have been toying with (you should see Amaris' brilliant progress on this. It's truly awesome!! )... My ultimate aim is to create a GJS'44 style manyplayer campaign, island hopping marines and "sea bee" engineers back and forth across the Pacific, supported by USN and IJN fleets of carriers, battleships, heavy and light cruisers, destroyers, submarines, transports, tankers, Vals & Zeroes, Corsairs & Avengers... You'll all be welcome when it's done ... Of course, GJS'44 D-Day will continue, in a better and stronger form, most likely with Ranger stepping up to GM (he has a military background and will do things rather more realistically than I could ever dream of )... Good luck guys. I'll definitely be watching. And will be happy to play the occasional battle for either side...

You will be missed. Just come back when you finish with your toys but if Ranger is GM he can't be Supreme Commander considering he has access to both secret forums. Who will step up to the plate?

[LandMarine47]

I haven't actually decided about being GM yet. So I don't have access to the secret German side thread. (or at least I shouldn't).

Is it necessary for the GM to have access to either of the secret forums?

There's no need to sort out the need for a new GM until after the June 11 turn has completed.

Besides I'm hoping GottaLove88s will kill a couple of his patients and get fired/sacked from his hospital. Then he'll have plenty of time to be our GM. That's not selfish of me is it?

Cheers,

Thomas
Allied Supreme Commander

Hey guys, Ranger has recommended that I take a break for my health... He generously overstates it, so no I'm not particularly sleep deprived, lol , but as I explained when I tried to step down from GJS'44 a few weeks back, there's a lot on my plate right now... I confess, I don't enjoy it when new commanders post lengthy complaints on multiple public forums before they try to resolve their non-issues privately, but I realise that's just how some people deal with things... and I need to learn to react more wisely ... Life's too short and it's really not that important... With time squeezed, I should prioritise on the things I enjoy most... I'd really like to concentrate on the Pacific mod that Amaris & I have been toying with (you should see Amaris' brilliant progress on this. It's truly awesome!! )... My ultimate aim is to create a GJS'44 style manyplayer campaign, island hopping marines and "sea bee" engineers back and forth across the Pacific, supported by USN and IJN fleets of carriers, battleships, heavy and light cruisers, destroyers, submarines, transports, tankers, Vals & Zeroes, Corsairs & Avengers... You'll all be welcome when it's done ... Of course, GJS'44 D-Day will continue, in a better and stronger form, most likely with Ranger stepping up to GM (he has a military background and will do things rather more realistically than I could ever dream of )... Good luck guys. I'll definitely be watching. And will be happy to play the occasional battle for either side...

You will be missed. Just come back when you finish with your toys but if Ranger is GM he can't be Supreme Commander considering he has access to both secret forums. Who will step up to the plate?

I don't think Mis Gottalove88's will be happy Ranger. She will take her wraith out on both him and the poor defenseless PC

[Ranger]

The PC is a decoy. Gottalove88s uses a Mac. It could work.

[LandMarine47]

If you retire from GM will you keep making maps or will it be someone else's problem?

[cavehobbit]

Hi all,

I'm making the maps now, so it's my problem No problem at all, it's just fun!

Some of the maps have been fought on earlier so these are no problem. I'm nearly finished with Trungy and will work on Bretteville and Lebisey Woods today. When finished I will send them to Ranger for inspection to make sure I've not hidden some extra Tigers in the German deploy zones...

I hope we soon can continue the fightings again!

/P-A

[LandMarine47]

Hi all,

I'm making the maps now, so it's my problem No problem at all, it's just fun!

Some of the maps have been fought on earlier so these are no problem. I'm nearly finished with Trungy and will work on Bretteville and Lebisey Woods today. When finished I will send them to Ranger for inspection to make sure I've not hidden some extra Tigers in the German deploy zones...

I hope we soon can continue the fightings again!

/P-A

Ahhh can't we have one Tiger plz!

[GottaLove88s]

Cavehobbit is right. Making maps is some of the best fun in BA (kind of therapeutic, like painting, in a weird 3d way )
I don't have time to make the next wave of GJS'44 maps, but I can testify that Cavehobbit designs fabulous maps (see Ingouf Farm, etc).
Will be happy to look at draft GSJ'44 D-Day maps, to make suggested edits here and there, if helpful...
And hugely look forward to playing some battles at last... if either side is looking for green recruits?

Hi all,

I'm making the maps now, so it's my problem No problem at all, it's just fun!

Some of the maps have been fought on earlier so these are no problem. I'm nearly finished with Trungy and will work on Bretteville and Lebisey Woods today. When finished I will send them to Ranger for inspection to make sure I've not hidden some extra Tigers in the German deploy zones...

I hope we soon can continue the fightings again!

/P-A