After the Peace of Nicias between Athens and Sparta in 421 BC, the next crisis came in the Peloponnese with the expiration of the 30 years truce between Argos and Sparta in 418 BC. Both sides gathered allies, resumed hostilities culminating in the battle of Mantineia, a classic hoplites encounter.
Designer's notes:
Hoplites battles were quick, relatively bloodless affairs. In other words, melees should be minimal and impact all important. With that in mind, all troops are rated poor (except the spartan royal guard, the 'hippeis'). Spartiate units (full citizens) are given their 'mora' leaders to denote their superior performance. By that time, perioikoi (non citizen) hoplites were brigaded together with the full citizens due to the precipitous decline in the latter ranks (from 8000 at the time of Plataea to about 3500 at the time of Mantineia). Also defensive spears are used across the board since anarchy charges were pretty much unknown (A few days before the battle, the Spartan army had advanced within javelin range of the Argive army before wheeling back). With both sides overlapping the other on the right, it's a matter of who can strike the decisive blow the fastest.
Fogman
Last edited by fogman on Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hello fogman, nice to see some greek ancient battles, but there are some problems.
Argive elite hoplites in Mantinea were in the center, with other argives. Also not sure about alternating the perioikoi with each troop, and both sides start way to close, imho.
Spartan side is missing cavalry, and there are no light troops?
Paul Cartledge in 'Sparta and Lakonia' (Routledge, 1979, 2nd edition 2002) wrote at length about Spartiate manpower.
On the Perioikoi alternating with Spartiate units: "... Spartiates of military age had dropped by a little over half in about two generations. A drastic step like the army reform was needed to compensate for this decline of Spartiate military power, since other measures were proving manifestly inadequate. Regrettably, we are wholly ignorant of the provision made for the training of those Perioikoi WHO NOW FOUND THEMSELVES BRIGADED WITH SPARTIATES in the mora..." (p. 220) etc.
A 'mora' being "a mode of organization that we know from Xenophon cut across local demarcations". (p. 219)
Donald Kagan who wrote the standard text on the Peloponnesian War (4 volumes, Cornell University Press, 1969 to 1987) had an account of Mantineia in the third volume ('The Peace of Nicias and the Sicilian Expedition', 1981): "The allies placed their greatest strength on the right wing: the Mantineans fighting for their homeland, next to them the other Arcadians with a similar motivation, then the specially trained elite Argive Thousand. This right wing was meant to take the offensive..." (p 123) I switched the Elite Argives with the Arcadians based on something else I can't remember. The point is they were on the right.
I'm aware the Spartans had some cavalry but it was not a factor in any of the accounts I've read. Athenian cavalry played a prominent role by contrast.
" As the armies advanced he (King Agis) realized that his right wing was held not by Spartans, but only by Tegeans who must face the Athenians supported by their own cavalry..." (p. 126)
"By this time the Spartan right wing was beginning to encircle the outflanked Athenians on the allies' left. The cavalry prevented a rout..." (p. 129)
The first version of the battle had the sides further apart (it is still there if you want to play it that way, beware both have the same file name so you need to rename the first folder). But inevitably, one tactic is to pull the Argive line backward and wait for the Argive right wing to come around, a totally ahistorical behaviour. The current version doesn't prevent that but makes it more difficult.
I don't use light troops in my scenarios (a lot of time they are modelled as rear rank bows and such, although not here since they were a non factor) because their representation in FoG is wholly unsatisfactory. Heck, I even hate them in DAG games.
Thucydides mentions Mantineans and Arcadians first in the right flank (rough estimations 2000 Mantineans and 1000 Arcadians).
So the Argive elites were in the right, but not by that much.
Noted the Perioikoi quote, still you have Perioikoi in the right flank, before the Mantineans. Instead I would put there a spartiate unit.
And you can add more commander names (Athens: Laches, Nicostratus, Argos: Thrasyllus (?) / Sparta: Aristocles, Hipponoidas). This is one of the few peloponnesian war battles where we know almost all the commander names.
Anyway do as you see, maybe you're aiming for a mix of fun/historicity instead of my personal standard: 100% historicity and no fun.
I don't agree. Whether the Elite Argives are nearer to the centre doesn't change the fact that they did not fight the Spartan centre. Please provide quote to the contrary.
I have mentioned I switched the Arcadians' position with the Elite Argives'. The reason, as I recall, was probably because there was no way the Mantineans and Arcadians can destroy the Spartans left wing quickly without the Argives closer by.
The lone Perioikoi unit at the far right is speculation, but since it has the exact FoG attributes as the Tegeans, it makes no difference. You can rename it Tegeans in the editor if that bothers you. Ditto with commanders names.
Now a lot hinges on what you take for 'historicity'. My definition of it is the flow of events. Scenarios have to unfold through certain recognizable events: here, the quick defeat of the spartan left and the weakness of the Argive centre vis-a-vis the Spartan centre are the key milestones. If you put the Elite Argives in (or nearer to) the centre, i guarantee it will not unfold like Mantineia at all. It will be a themed DAG battle, a what-if battle. It will be like Cannae without the envelopment.
"Opposite to them, in the right wing, stood the Mantineans, because it was upon their own territory; and with them such Arcadians as were of their league. Then the thousand chosen Argives."
Before, Thucydides says this of the spartan side:
"In the right wing were the Tegeats, and a few Lacedaemonians in the point of the same wing. And upon the outside of either wing, the horsemen."
I doubt those few lacedemonians were periokoi, that's the other thing I argue, In no way i asked you to place a Tegean unit.
*You missed the point i was making. let me lay it out:
1) the source says the Arcadians were to the right of the elite Argives. You interpret it as the latter were in the centre, or near the centre. Indeed looking at the deployment, it would be nearly so. But...
2) the source does not say the elite Argives engaged the Spartiate hoplites in the centre, but instead the source says they engaged the Spartan left.
I was aware of point 1) but I saw there is a contradiction here. Which is more important or historical? I attach more importance to point 2) than to point 1) which made me switch the respective positions of the Arcadians and the elite Argives. Having the elite Argives in the middle would collapse the entire narrative of the battle.
*Now to the case of the 'few lacedemonians' to the far right.
You interpret 'lacedemonians' to mean spartiates and not perioikoi. Lacedaemonian is the adjectival form of Lacedaemon, which is another name for both Sparta and Laconia (the adjective 'Laconic' referred back to the supposed Spartans' brevity of speech), the city, the surrounding area. Therefore 'Lacedaemonians and Spartans are interchangeable. Thus 'Lacedaemonians' is not restrictive to 'Spartiates', full Spartan citizens.
For example: "The Spartan authorities tried to avoid responsibility, saying 'The Lacedaemonians order you to decide your own fate yourselves, but to to do nothing dishonorable.' The Spartans surrendered. Of the 420 who had come to the island, 128 were dead; the remaining 292, among them 120 Spartiates, were taken prisoner to Athens..." (Kagan, The Archidamian War, p. 247)
Cartledge wrote of the same event (the Spartan disaster at Sphakteria): "... he (Thucydikes) tells us that of the 292 survivors from the 420 about 120 were Spartiates, the rest Perioikoi (4.38.5)." (p. 219)
You could argue that those Lacedaemonians on the right are Spartiates, but they could also be Perioikoi. Neither is more 'historical'. It is more likely there was a mixture but I wasn't going to create two units out of those "few lacedemonians". In the end it doesn't matter because that unit is unlikely to engage since the closest enemy unit, the Athenians, are likely to pull away from them towards the Argive centre to avoid envelopment.
Fm Mantineia 418 BC.zip
