Auto Breaks and Cohesion

[doliphant]

Just wanting to make sure that I have the understanding of this correct.
If a unit auto-breaks after combat, I take it that even though it would eventually be removed, that it would still perform an initial route move during the associated combat phase, causing whatever disruptions it may inflict and the pursuer also performs and initial pursuit. If a commander is with the BG when it Auto-breaks this commander would be free to move away in the JAP, unless the unit routed off the table in its initial route. So even though the unit is removed (mainly a game mechanism since the unit cannot be rallied) the commander still remains on the field. So what happens if a BG with a commander auto-breaks because it is reduced to one base, performs initial route and is caught in rear by pursuer. The rules state the BG loses a base reducing it to zero. Is the commander lost in this situation or does a normal roll of 10 or more for killing commander apply and then the commander can move in the JAP if he survives. If he can move does he have to immediately be able to move to another BG within movement distance or he is lost per the contacting commander rules since the commander base is the only one remaining?

The other was to do with rallying or bolstering BGs. We've missed this in the past but again just needing confirmation. Is it correct to assume that the modifier for >=25% previous losses also applies with attempting to rally or bolster? eg a 4 base BG has been reduced to 3 bases and is currently broken. For a commander to rally these the modifiers that would apply would be, -1 >=25% base loss, -3 broken, +1 Commander in LoC in range of BG not in combat (since he's with the BG), = -3 total modifier? (Could be an additional +1 if IC).
Thanks
Daniel

[gozerius]

When a BG with a commander loses its last base due to a pursuer remaining in contact, the general must survive the roll to kill. Then it could move away in the JAP. It must only move to join a friendly BG or be eliminated if during a charge move or normal move an enemy BG would come into contact with it, or it found itself in the shooting arc of an enemy BG during the shooting phase.

All modifiers that apply to CTs apply to bolstering/rallying. This includes rear support, threatened flank, etc.

[HarryKonst]

I think that the general can move in the JAP after surviving the roll to kill, even to a spot where there is no friendly BG.He can stay there and in a next phase of the game when an enemy BG would come into contact with him or place him in shooting range he has to be able to move and join a friendly BG, otherwise he is lost.So he has two chances of movement instead of one.-Harry

[Intothevalley]

Hmmm, not sure if we played this right last night then. When a BG autobroke, we took it that since it was still steady (had failed no cohesion checks) it should not do a rout move but just evaporate in situ - is that wrong? If we were right then that leads to another question - we had a general fighting in the front rank. Our reading was that they could not leave the battle group or the front rank until the combat had finished. Since removal of autobroken BGs is the last thing to be done in the JAP phase (at least in v1 we were using), does that mean that the general is lost automatically?
Thanks for your help!

[philqw78]

All modifiers that apply to CTs apply to bolstering/rallying. This includes rear support, threatened flank, etc.

no they don't

[ravenflight]

Hmmm, not sure if we played this right last night then. When a BG autobroke, we took it that since it was still steady (had failed no cohesion checks) it should not do a rout move but just evaporate in situ - is that wrong? If we were right then that leads to another question - we had a general fighting in the front rank. Our reading was that they could not leave the battle group or the front rank until the combat had finished. Since removal of autobroken BGs is the last thing to be done in the JAP phase (at least in v1 we were using), does that mean that the general is lost automatically?
Thanks for your help!

The unit has 'auto broken'. It is no longer in combat and the general is then free to move. I don't know the order of things off the top, but in the JAP the units who are routing rout... this includes the auto breakers. Pursuit happens. Casualties are removed for contact with routers. Generals move... this includes the general who is routing with the auto breakers. Auto broken troops are removed from the table.

I may have a few steps mixed up here, but I think I have it basically correct.

If you follow the chart you should be ok.

[gozerius]

All modifiers that apply to CTs apply to bolstering/rallying. This includes rear support, threatened flank, etc.

no they don't

You are right. Only those modifiers which are not marked by one or more asterisks apply to bolstering or rallying. But the -1 for having lost each full 25% applies (broken cannot rally if at or below 50% strength), so does rear support, though that might not be very likely to be available to a BG that is routing. The -1 for a threatened flank applies, but again, if enemy non-skirmishers are close enough to charge, they are probably within 6 MU, and so would preclude rallying. And the only commander mod is for the commander with the BG.

[pyruse]

A battlegroup auto-breaking is no different from a battlegroup breaking due to failed cohesion tests; it makes its initial rout move, causes CTs on nearby friends and so on.
Only at the appropriate step of the JAP is it removed.

[bbotus]

Since removal of autobroken BGs is the last thing to be done in the JAP phase (at least in v1 we were using), does that mean that the general is lost automatically?

Take a look at viewtopic.php?f=43&t=41682 On the 2nd page RBS says the BG is not destroyed till after the enemy completes its move. So the commander is still alive unless and until the enemy subsequently move through his position. Applies to either version.