Gallic list - any good , this is what I have .

[Keith]

Hi all
rebasing my Warriors etc , and this is what I have come up with , will it do any good vs my Romans ?
Can you mix lowland and hill tribe warriors in the same army ?
Do I need more Cav ?
Should I base the warriors as HF or MF , I have guys that have armour and some naked as well so I could model both types ?


1x FC CinC
2x TC Sub Commanders
4x Light Chariots
4 x Cavalry
12 x MF Warriors
12 x MF Warriors
12 x MF Warriors
8 x MF Warriors
8 x MF Warriors
6x LF Slingers
6x LF Slingers


thanks

[rbodleyscott]

If it was me I would base the 12s as HF and the 8s as MF - the MF can be an allied hill tribe.

Naked Gaesati should be HF.

Note that 10s may be more cost effective under the rules than 12s as they have to lose the same number of bases to autobreak if Average (>40% lost = 5 bases in both cases).

12 Gaesati, however, would be formidable indeed. (Superior, would need to lose 7 bases to autobreak)

Another BG of cavalry would be good.

[shall]

We came 2nd with Gallic at Usk

I would suggest

12s as HF as you will need to fight in the open
2 x 8s as MF as a highland ally

don't take more cv - if anything more HF in 8s to act as rear support

Make 2 of the 12s Gaesati as Sup

Max out on TCs as you need to chuck them into combat with the 12s to win against Romans

Therein a tasty army

Si

[Keith]

Ok thanks guys.

HF it is for the big BG's , so only 20mm depth for the bases and 4 figures to a base ?

The MF will be 30mm deep and 3 figures.

talking 25mm figures.

Who were the Gaesati ? Super Gauls or something ? I'll do some research

[shall]

Yes that's right for 25mm basing

The Gaesati was a tribe of Gauls that were partiucularly renowned for their fighting prowess and ther incliation to strip naked to intimidate or impress their opponents. Most Gauls are classified Ave and with a general they still make for an excellent charge with Impact Foot troops if you put them in 12s for maximum upgrade from the general. The Gaesati are Superior already and you can have 24 of them. They need a Gaesati allied general. They make and excellent open terrain spearhead for a gallic army.

Have fun with it - we did. Teh Gaesati ran over a Slelcid pike pahlanx in our last game taking down 3 BGs for the loss of 1 of its won. Very dramatic asa charge.

Si

[rbodleyscott]

Who were the Gaesati ? Super Gauls or something ?

Pretty much so, yes.

[Keith]

Ok thanks
How does this look ?Roughly 650 points I need to trim a few points .

I have enough cav to up their BG to 6.

1 FC CinC
2 TC Sub Commanders
4 Light Chariots
4 Cavalry
8 MF Warriors
8 MF Warriors
6 LF Slingers
6 LF Slingers

1 TC Sub Commanders
12 HF Gaesati
12 HF Gaesati

[shall]

It will be fine as a base for an 800 pointer.

You need to have 24 ave warriors in the main army so at 650pts it might be hard to make ther Gaesati work well at full strength.

For 650 pts take a hill tribe c-in-c so that everyone but the Gaesati are MF and that will work ok I think. Need to add another 8 MF and reduce Gaesati to 10s and drop cinc to a TC to try make it fit. May need to drop a TC entirely but at 650 pts 3 TCs is probably OK for your army.

If you can afford it bulk up an MF block to 10 as well for max general upgrade.

Go for it

Si

[carlos]

Did someone say Super Gauls????

[shall]

Yup that was me and Terry at Usk.

All those pies I had to eat to do the big guy!

Si

[hazelbark]

Yup that was me and Terry at Usk.

All those pies I had to eat to do the big guy!

Si

yes you are renowned for your pig tails.

[shall]

You noticed, schuks I am touhced!

Si

[vsolfronk]

How are the Gaesati classified as HF? Wouldnt being considered naked count at least as MF?
Perhaps our soldiers should strip down instead of having armour? ;^D

[Keith]

Yeah I was sort of shocked that any warband could be HF , but I come from a WAB background so I really have no idea

I don't think they always fought naked , it might be a bit of a legend ? But they foguht well.
From what I've been looking at I think their reputation classes them as HF ?

[trev]

The Gaesati was a tribe of Gauls that were partiucularly renowned for their fighting prowess and ther incliation to strip naked to intimidate or impress their opponents. Most Gauls are classified Ave and with a general they still make for an excellent charge with Impact Foot troops if you put them in 12s for maximum upgrade from the general. The Gaesati are Superior already and you can have 24 of them. They need a Gaesati allied general. They make and excellent open terrain spearhead for a gallic army.

Hi folks,

Can someone involved in the list design please explain to me the thinking behind the Gallic list? In particular I'm wondering why the Soldurii and Gaesati are singled out when there were lots of Gallic tribes described in such fierce terms. It seems to me they are just artefacts of the old WRG days rather than being truly deserving of their honours. The Gaesati in particular have got to have one of the best PR departments of any ancient regiment. They essentially do nothing at Telamon except get peppered with javelins and run away! Is taking your clothes off really enough to get such excellent stats?

I would have thought that a simple upgrade option for the warriors to be superior would have covered the exceptional tribes better than picking out these dubious specifics. Apologies if I seem overly critical, I think the Rise of Rome lists are generally good but I have a soft spot for the Gauls and I can't hide my disappointment that these remain when so much of the other old nonsense has finally been discarded.

cheers,

Trev

[Phaze_of_the_Moon]

How are the Gaesati classified as HF? Wouldnt being considered naked count at least as MF?
Perhaps our soldiers should strip down instead of having armour? ;^D

Yeah I was sort of shocked that any warband could be HF , but I come from a WAB background so I really have no idea

I don't think they always fought naked , it might be a bit of a legend ? But they foguht well.
From what I've been looking at I think their reputation classes them as HF ?

Presumably they use the Archer Jones definition of "heavy": trained to fight in large masses, shoulder to shoulder or stirrup to stirrup.

[nikgaukroger]

How are the Gaesati classified as HF? Wouldnt being considered naked count at least as MF?

HF has no relation to armour.

[shall]

The HF reflects density rather than armour. FOG reflects the two separately so allows Gaesati to be HF Protected while Thorakitai can be MF armoured.

As for the Gallic list there has been much research by the team and they have kep tthe flavour of armies where it made sense. If you want to thinlk of your soldurii as the elites ofa nother tribe and ditto the Gaesati great. The more we get into our armies and characterise them ourselves the better in my view. Of course we have aimed to shed a lot of past myth and there may yet be some worth removing in future....

Just to add - as a non expert in their history - as protected they are pretty vunerable to mass missile fire in the rules. FWIW.

Cheers

Si

[trev]

Hi Si,

Thanks for the response.

As for the Gallic list there has been much research by the team and they have kep tthe flavour of armies where it made sense.

That's part of the problem sadly. It's because several of the other lists have had significant improvements made to them that I was rather disappointed the Gauls were still much as they has been under DBM. Mind you, at least the autokill and impetuosity racism have gone, so it's not a total disaster.

If you want to thinlk of your soldurii as the elites ofa nother tribe and ditto the Gaesati great.

That isn't really what I meant. I'm thinking more of whole tribes that had reputations for ferocity or martial prowess. For example, Caesar says the Nervii "are reckoned the most warlike" of the Belgae and the Helvetii "surpass the rest of the Gauls in valor". So I was disappointed to see that all Gauls were average except for these two specific examples both of which are single instances in our sources and highly dubious in nature. i.e The Gaesati do nothing except show off to single themselves out and the Soldurii are probably nothing more than dismounted cavalry making a sally during a siege. The Spartan players will be spitting feathers if they're Spartiates don't get Elites status and these guys do!

The more we get into our armies and characterise them ourselves the better in my view.

I totally agree. I like to model my armies on specific historical forces if I can. The problem here is that every Gallic army we face in points based games will now have their Soldurii and no doubt most with have some Gaesati too. It's not representative. If instead all the Gauls had been allowed the upgrade option the Galatians have, we could still have Superior naked troops if we wanted but the Nervii or Helvetii could be represented without having to bend the lists too. And perhaps more importantly newbie players wouldn't assume that all Gallic tribes were of uniform martial skill. The Romans get four grades of legionary after all, couldn't we have had two grades of Gallic warriors?

Of course we have aimed to shed a lot of past myth and there may yet be some worth removing in future....

Actually, to show I am not only negative I think you've made some brave and good calls. The Numidian list is great. No silly Gaetulians and Jugurtha can have proper foot troops, which is nice. I'm pleased to see Thureophoroi that can fight in the line of battle and the fantasy slave phalanxes have gone from the Pontics too! All good stuff. Unfortunately though, I think the Gauls still have considerable room for improvement.

Just to add - as a non expert in their history - as protected they are pretty vunerable to mass missile fire in the rules. FWIW.

This is a good thing IMO. The Gauls at Telamon and the Galatians in the east suffered badly from missiles. Their shields may have got larger later on as it's not really mentioned in Caesar's day but armoured would be OTT I think and it could be just that Roman armies included a lot less skirmishers by this time.

Regards,

Trev

[nikgaukroger]

That isn't really what I meant. I'm thinking more of whole tribes that had reputations for ferocity or martial prowess. For example, Caesar says the Nervii "are reckoned the most warlike" of the Belgae and the Helvetii "surpass the rest of the Gauls in valor". So I was disappointed to see that all Gauls were average except for these two specific examples both of which are single instances in our sources and highly dubious in nature. i.e The Gaesati do nothing except show off to single themselves out and the Soldurii are probably nothing more than dismounted cavalry making a sally during a siege. The Spartan players will be spitting feathers if they're Spartiates don't get Elites status and these guys do!

Haven't got time to go into this too deeply at present but here are a few thoughts:

1. Warlike tribes - I take with a healthy pinch of salt; the Helvetii have to be made to be a threat to justify the action staken against them so they are played up to bring back memories of the Cimbri & Teutones - Caesar does this repeatedly throughout his Gallic Wars; the Nervii fall into the "further away barbarians are more fierce" trope of Graeco-Roman writings. IMO neither actually stood out above other tribes in on the day performance. If you've read Thomas Burns' "Rome and the Barbarians" you'll see that I am heavily influence by it

2. Gaesati - on reflection I think a general upgrade to Superior, same numbers as the Gaesati, for "fierce on the day" tribes would have been a better option, but as you say the Gaesati PR machine is good

3. Soldurii - a number of lists that would be a bit bland have a touch of romance/generosity added and a single BG in an otherwise Average army won't break things IMO. You can't have both Soldurii and Gaesati in the same army as that would be a broken list (at least I hope we left that restriction in ... )

4. The Spartanophiles are complaining about no elites even without mentioning the Soldurii