why are the rangles so short

[terry1956]

Hi, just picked up mu copy of the rules, and I must say that I was taken back by the very short rangles of some of the weapons, ie the english longbow and bombards, at a rangle of only 6 inches at the most and infanry being able to move between 4 and 5 inches, it means the field of fire will be around 1 to 2 moves at most, and with the reduction for ranks this makes the longbow a total waste of points, Is FOG yet one more game in which shot armies are forced to hide behind walls etc and pike armies rule the day.
anyone have any views.
michael

[rogerg]

We used a 100 Years War English at Burton this weekend. In a game facing French knights in a Spnsih army, we advanced with longbows supported by men-at-arms and led by an inspired general. The knights charged, fought a couple of rounds, broke off charged again. We ran out of time during the second clash while it was still undecided. This was one of th emost enjoyable games I have played in for a while. A really tense encounter that could have gone either way.

My view is that the shooting rules work very well. Longbowmen with swords, supported and well led are tough, but not so tough they will not be charged by knights. Against pike it is a problem, but if you can get a tactical situation where the pikes are slowed down, take shooting from overlaps or flanks, or take a shot that disrupts them or removes that vital fouth rank then this is still a good contest.

Ordinary bowmen with no swordsman POA for the melee have a tough time against good melee troops. But that is how it should be. Shooting from rough terrain they can be very useful, driving off skirmishers and harassing other troops who prefer good going.

[rbodleyscott]

FOG ranges are correct for a scale of approximately 250 men per base, and the game is balanced to take account of the interaction of shooting ranges and move distances.

No doubt the ranges come as a shock to players coming from WAB, but FOG is a different scale game. Longer missile ranges would not be realistic at this scale.

As Roger says English longbowmen are very effective. We also used an English army at Burton with some success. (We came 5th out of 18 teams, Roger & Andy came 6th). Each of our armies had 32 bases of longbowmen (128 figures). The tournament winning army also had quite a few longbowmen.

[hammy]

Heavy foot can only move 3 MU so men at arms will be on the wrong end of at least two long and two short range volleys before they get into contact.

Longbow are definitely worth the points but if unsuported longbow stand in the open against dismounted men at arms expect them to lose. Armoured billmen attacking longbow would go roughly like this:

Billmen advance and end up at long range from longbow (4-6 MU)
Longbow shoot, one dice per two bases needing a 4, about a 50% chance of forcing a cohesion test, perhaps 15% chance of disrupting bills
Longow advance to effective range (4MU) and shoot with 50% more dice so on a 4 base frontage they get 6 dice and need 3 hits to force a test so 20% chance of disrupting the bills.
Bills advance, longbow shoot at full effect
Longbow shoot at full effect
If the billmen are still steady they charge, if they are disrupted they can only charge if they pass a CMT, if they are fragmented they stand there.

Assuming the billmen charge without being disrupted on a 4 base frontage the bill have 8 dice needing 4 and the longbow 12 dice needing 5 so essentially even. Only after the impact do the bills have an advantage.

Heavily armoured men at arms a harder to hurt with shooting and it makes a big difference.

I have had Swiss pike shot to bits by average bowmen so pike are not the be all and end all. If the pike can keep steady and make it into contact without losing bases or cohesion the bow will die but it is a big if.

[neilhammond]

Bombards are heavy artillery and have a range of 12". But I assume you're talking princally about mass bows/longbows.

The only infantry that have 5" movement are light foot, who are poor in melee so are unlikely to charge - they will prefer a "firefight" to hand-to-hand.

Against MF and HF you'll probably only have 2 good shots at close range before you get charged. Typically that will force 1 cohesion test if you assume equal number of bases and no shooting overlaps, with about 40% chance that the opponent fails the CT. So, roughly, about 1 in 4 of disrupting your attackers. The shooting odds deteriotate to about 1 in 6 chance of disruption against armoured or heavily armoured foot (e.g. legionaries/MAA) because they are better protected. OTOH they are much more expensive.

Once in combat, the effectiveness of the bows is really down to the level or armour and whether they have melee capability (swordsmen). Protected bows with sword are okay against foot in melee, but not so great at impact... although they do get extra dice for 2nd rank shooting in the impact phase.

So poorly equiped bows will stuggle in the open against good MF/HF. Well equiped bows are okay, and they get some chance to inflict damage through shooting. This sounds okay to me. Generally mass archers without secondary capability didn't do well against determined infantry.

[terry1956]

Thanks chaps, I was just looking at the rules yeaterday, wanted a war of the roses army. OK I see some good points, But when one look at battles of the time, did not the archers fight behind stakes, or some other form of defence, If this is so they are not going to move forwards outside that protection. still not sure of the range of the bombards.
128 bowmen on the table must of been good to see, was that 15mm or 25mm
keep the view points coming, I need to know. and is a war of the roses army any good under these rules.

[terry1956]

Thanks chaps, I was just looking at the rules yeaterday, wanted a war of the roses army. OK I see some good points, But when one look at battles of the time, did not the archers fight behind stakes, or some other form of defence, If this is so they are not going to move forwards outside that protection. still not sure of the range of the bombards.
128 bowmen on the table must of been good to see, was that 15mm or 25mm
keep the view points coming, I need to know. and is a war of the roses army any good under these rules.

[shall]

We have made stakes temporary obstacles that you can carry and deploy when you are ready. Overall the mechnics make HYW or WOR armies feel ver much correct and it is the feel we have worked to get correct. Give the armies a try and you will porbably find the same.

Si

[rbodleyscott]

We used a Wars of the Roses Yorkist Pretenders army at Burton. I would certainly use it again, or one of the other variants.

It was in 15mm, but I enjoyed using it so much that I am looking to get it in 28mm too when WF make the plastic figures for it.

We have made stakes temporary obstacles that you can carry and deploy when you are ready.

If you pass a CMT to do so. Some scary moments, but we got ours down in time at Burton. (You need to get within long range of the enemy knights first otherwise they will probably just ride away).

[nikgaukroger]

I've used Later Anglo-Irish twice in competitions so far with 3 BGs of longbowmen in each time.

They have certainly been effective enough and with the stakes certainly give enemy mounted something to think about

[terry1956]

Thanks chaps, sounds good, just need to find some players here in devon,

[kabrank]

OO WotR 28mm Plastics that would be must buy I think.

Ridhard is this a little "fore" knowledge or hopefull pleading to the manufacturer? If pleading I raise my voice too....

Back to painting 15mm 100 yrs wars and 28mm Crusades in the mean time.

I have not been this excited about a rules set since the mid 70's!!

So many armies so little time!!

Kelvin

[Scrumpy]

Love the shooting aspect of these rules.

I have had Horse archers parked in front of spear and shoot them till their morale cracked and they routed, unlike some other rules, the foot have to deal with the archers or face the consequences.

[rbodleyscott]

OO WotR 28mm Plastics that would be must buy I think.

Ridhard is this a little "fore" knowledge or hopefull pleading to the manufacturer? If pleading I raise my voice too....

You can do so, there is a poll on the WF site.

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/polls.htm

[kabrank]

Hi Richard

I have aleady voted for 100 years war English. But will they be late enough for WotR. Looks at present that we will have to wait a bit seeing the other votings.

Kelvin

[rbodleyscott]

I have aleady voted for 100 years war English. But will they be late enough for WotR. Looks at present that we will have to wait a bit seeing the other votings.

Well I am not too picky about such things. There was less time difference between the end of the HYW and the end of the WOR than there was between the start of the HYW and the end of the HYW. So I guess it depends what part of the HYW WF choose for their models.

However, I don't care, even if they produce 14th century figures I won't be ashamed to field them as 15th. After all, not everyone wore the latest gear - many wore hand-me-downs from their father and grandfather.

[AlbionOak]

Thanks chaps, sounds good, just need to find some players here in devon,

Plenty of us in the Plymouth area - where are you?

[terry1956]

Hi, I am in Exmouth, they just don,t play anything bar si-fi and home made rules here. Mind you I see nothing wrong with home made rules if they are any good, but these are just not.
any players between plymouth and exmouth.
michael

[kabrank]

Hi Richard

Yes I will be happy if they produce 100yrs War for 1400/Agincourt onwards and will use these for WotR bulking out with any super hi tech armour from other suppliers. If they do 1350's/Crecy etc the I will be dissapointed but will still use them for 100 Yrs War.

Hopefully they will see that 1400's opens up so many other European armies.

As I only have 4 to 5 figs in 15mm prepared so far it may pay me to wait with my Glacial painting speed for the 28mm to be avlb!!

Kelvin

[rbodleyscott]

Yes I will be happy if they produce 100yrs War for 1400/Agincourt onwards and will use these for WotR bulking out with any super hi tech armour from other suppliers. If they do 1350's/Crecy etc the I will be dissapointed but will still use them for 100 Yrs War.

Hopefully they will see that 1400's opens up so many other European armies.

Probably worth dropping WF an e-mail to this effect. I entirely agree with you and I will do so to. It would be nice if they included some stakes too, and these only came into use in 1415.