Charge/counter charge measurement

[Amra]

A Cavalry unit declares a charge on another .
The counter charging cav must go half the distance or 4"
Any wheel by the counter charging unit doesn't count for distance

From where is the counter charge distance measured ?

Is it nearest point to nearest point ?
OR
The distance the chargers must travel ( including wheels etc) halved ?
OR
Measured from centre of the charging unit ?
Thanks

[deadtorius]

you move the counter charging unit its half move or minimum move whichever is less. They have to move towards the charging unit, so you measure from the front of the unit. Distance between should be measured from front to front of each unit involved, if it helps wheel the front bases of the charger to face the target then measure to the front of the target to determine the actual move distance.
Hope that was clear and not too akwardly wordy

[Amra]

Sort of thanks

"measure from the front of the unit"

So measure from the centre of the front edges or nearest front edge point ?

Isn't the chargers wheel part of the distance travelled and therefore should be included when working out counter charge distance ?

Only the counter charging units wheel is "free"
I dont see anything that says the chargers wheel is also "free"

[BrettPT]

Chipping in here,

As Dead suggests, the easiest way to manage this situation is:

1. Wheel the countercharging unit so that its front face is facing the charging unit.
2. If the units are now 8MU apart or closer, measuring between the closest points of the 2 units, then countercharge straight ahead 1/2 the distance between the 2 units. If the units are more than 8MU apart, countercharge 4MU straight ahead.
3. The Charging unit now does its charge move, including any wheels, to move into contact with the counterchargers.

It can however get more complicated if more than 1 unit is involved on a side.

If the chargers have 2 units charging a single target, the target can usually countercharge both if they are directly ahead. If on an angle, just countercharge one of the chargers. Either way all 3 units will end up in contact so its no major.

If the chargers declare a charge on a single unit, and that target has friends nearby that want to join in, those friends will need to do an intercept charge. The target can still countercharge as well however this can be a real headache as the intercepting unit moves first into a position blocking the path of the assaulting unit (which they have to do under the rules in order to intercept) which often means that the original countercharging target cannot now find space to get into contact. Terry has commented on this situation previously

Question: If a cav unit targets another cav unit and the chargers get intercepted, does the original target still counter charge?

Terry's reply:
Yes - if if fulfills the folllowing conditions:
1) It does not have to take a CMT to do so.
2) It can still contact the chargers within its 'normal' counter-charge distance.

[Amra]

So, once the counter charging unit wheels to the same facing as the charger, measure the distance from the nearest point between them ?

What about when the attacker has to wheel to make contact ? In other words the 2 units are already on the same facing , where do you measure from then ?

I'm having trouble getting this cleared up so Im leaving your multiples out of it !

[richafricanus]

Brett, where does it say you measure the distance between the closest points? The rule ,merely says counter-chargers move "half the distance". Why can't this mean half, incl the wheel distance of the chargers?

[BrettPT]

You are correct, the rules don't specify closest points, centre to centre, or otherwise. What we have is:

1. Simply move the non-active player's units towards them;
2. half the distance between themselves and the assaulting unit; and
3. wheeling towards them as far as necessary ...(the wheel is free)

Taking the simplest approach, my view is that you wheel to point at the chargers, then go straight ahead. Because the wheel is 'free', it is practical to do this before measuring.

The rules use the word 'distance between' the units. This is not qualified by how fast the units can move (ie LC or HC, or in terrain) nor are there any qualifications based on the facing of unit being counter-charged.
The distance between any two objects would usually be the gap between their closest points. So in the absence of anything to the contrary, I believe "the distance between them" in this instance should be measured between the closest points - it's also easy and quick to work out on tabletop.

Sound reasonable?

[Amra]

Maybe , what about when they are lined up but off set ? So the attacker must wheel to contact , how do we measure it then ?

[Amra]

Just had a thought

If they are off set , the attacker wheels to get an angle which would contact , the defender then wheels to match the new facing , measure the distance between them via their closest points and move .

Does that seem right ?

[BrettPT]

Not sure I see the issue here - the countercharge and the assault moves are not done simultaneously, maybe that is where you are running into trouble?

If the two opposing units are lined up (ie facing each other) but offset, the countercharging unit will first wheel so that its front is pointing at the enemy, then is moved staight ahead towards the opponent 1/2 the distance now between them (up to a maximum 4MU). The charging unit has not yet been moved.

Now that the countercharge has been done, the assaulting unit does its assault. It wheels towards the countercharging unit and then goes straight ahead into contact with them. This assault move including the wheel can be up to 8MU/10MU for HC/LC.

Cheers
Brett

[Amra]

The question was one of distance measurement .

So your saying distance is measured after the defender has wheeled to be "pointing at " the enemy . Once that happens the charge/counter charge range is nearest point halved . The actual distance the attacker has to travel is ignored (providing it doesn't exceed their move) Have I got it ?

Does any part of the rules say this ?

BTW this came about because we were trying to work out if a counter charging unit was pulled off the hill or travelled the shorter distance and got uphill advantage

[BrettPT]

[quote="Amra"]So your saying distance is measured after the defender has wheeled to be "pointing at " the enemy . Once that happens the charge/counter charge range is nearest point halved . The actual distance the attacker has to travel is ignored (providing it doesn't exceed their move) Have I got it ? quote]

That's how we do it. I havn't got my rulebook with me so I can't point to you specifics at the moment, however from memory it's inherant in the sequencing.

1. Counterchargers move first, ignoring any wheel. I don't recall any provision in the rules that the distance the countercharging unit moves (after wheeling) is related to how far the assaulting unit will move. It is simply 4MU, or halfway towards the assaulting unit (if this is less).

2. The Assaulting unit is then moved.


- and yes, one of the tricks in cavalry combat is to try and draw careless enemy units away from their supports or an uphill advantage. There are of course a couple of obvious counters to this, being:

a) keep your rear supports within 2MU of the front unit (so you can't be dragged out of range)
b) when on a hill, keep 4MU back from the downhill edge.

Cheers
Brett


Cheers
Brett

[terrys]

As a general rule of thumb:-
Make all wheels BEFORE measuring distance moved.