Operation Jubilee - Dieppe - Pls upgrade to 1.1

[LandMarine47]

I think SP should be St. Nazaire I'm sure Ranger has his homework for Brits and I have mine for the Germans. But I'd go for it!

[Ranger]

1. .... Central is where the Commandoes are located...

The Central landing area LM is referring to is where "A Commando RM" were to assault. Their mission (one of?) was to get into the harbor and steal the 20 - 40 german landing craft and drive them back to England.

... no.3 and no.4 commando, who attacked on the far flanks, benefitted from night starts...

That's right, for those who are following this and may not realize it, the far flanks GottaLove88s is referring to are not represented on his map. 4 Commando landed at Orange 1 and Orange 2 (west of the main Canadian assault force) and the remnants of 3 Commando landed at Yellow (east of the main force).

[GottaLove88s]

Thanks Ranger... For those interested in the full history, a detailed map of the actual landing plans is shown at the top of the thread... copied here...

Sadly, I could only replicate the central area of Dieppe ville, between the Eastern and Western Headlands (inset map, top left), using BA's battle scale... also, as admitted up top, I decided to pull the Foret d'Arques closer into town to create some variation in terrain...

Maps of the Battle Area

[Ranger]

Another thing the Commandoes should be further ahead of the main Raiding Force as in Histroy to knock out the guns. There we can even the Germans with Italians and further Commandoes in front

3 and 4 Commando were assigned the missions to take out the guns (objectives "Goebbels" and "Hess" respectively). Their landing beaches (Orange and Yellow) are not actually on the Dieppe Jubilee Scenario Game map. (Neither are Goebbels and Hess.)

[Ranger]

I think SP should be St. Nazaire I'm sure Ranger has his homework for Brits and I have mine for the Germans. But I'd go for it!

St. Nazaire is one of my all time favorite raids. I'll be ready for that when we're satisfied with our (GottaLove88s) Dieppe Jubilee project. I'm looking forward to it.

[LandMarine47]

St. Nazaire is often called the King of all Raids. It should have never worked in the first place. This just shows how enginuity and bravery meet to make one big happy family

[LandMarine47]

Hmmm GL88's I have found a quite unsettling problem with the Axis. At the Western Head Land those units are WAY to far away from the action! The Allies can easily bypass the Cheatu via the railroads. There are 3 options. 1 Move the units somewhere else. 2 Make the Allies hit the area (VP) 3 Move the Allied fleet between the entrance to the harbor and the Cheatu (Where the 105MM is located) My opponent merely bypassed the entire force going straight for the Radar Station.

[GottaLove88s]

Hmmm GL88's I have found a quite unsettling problem with the Axis. At the Western Head Land those units are WAY to far away from the action! The Allies can easily bypass the Cheatu via the railroads. There are 3 options. 1 Move the units somewhere else. 2 Make the Allies hit the area (VP) 3 Move the Allied fleet between the entrance to the harbor and the Cheatu (Where the 105MM is located) My opponent merely bypassed the entire force going straight for the Radar Station.

Hey LM, Can you post a screenshot to show what they did?

Do you mean the Allies landed a large force and bypassed all four of your coastal guns on the western side???!!! That's impossible, unless you bombarded something else the previous turn (and the Allies landed and moved forward their entire force during the single reload turn for all four guns, which would be exceedingly lucky). Or the Allies must have covered their landing with plenty of smoke and brought in commandos & engineers to take out 1-2 of your guns and move inland (which is what no.4 commando partially did on the day, and what no.3 and no.4 commando were supposed to do).

How many turns into the game are you? Remember the only fixed units are the coastal guns, so if you're worried about the railway lines, you can move your infantry and MGs to cover assault routes using one of the seafront hotels or the tobacco factory? The Germans are not obligated to leave their infantry and MG in the chateau/bunkers... I would say, go with your option 1. The German player can walk his units where he likes once the game starts... Defend wisely, LM!

PS. Remember you have reserve troops at 3 locations... your radar station, at HQ 10th panzer and at HQ 302nd infanterie div... approximately 4 tanks, a scout car, 8 infantry/engineers, 6 or so trucks, 2x 251/1s... Where are all of these meanwhile? A good defence means flexible allocation of resources, so you can beat him off... but if he lands, you must quickly reallocate... Where are all of your reserves at the moment?... Btw, where are your 3 Vorpostenboot and 2 Ubootjager too? I thought you posted that you intended to deploy them in your harbour? If you have put them there, then they should be able to see, and fire at will, at anything on the harbour railway lines...? Let me know if you have LOS issues...?

Screenshots please. You're not going to like this, but it sounds like you're fighting an experienced adversary, who is using great tactics...

Is it Al? Or Ranger? Put a good fight LM... and learn lessons from your most cunning opponents...

[GottaLove88s]

Btw freighters aren't just eye candy... Used properly, they're awesome scouts (aka spotters for coastal guns and the Luftwaffe)... taking me back to the shame of Ranger toasting 3 of my destroyers, sigh... Try it and see... If u only consider 'em eye candy, you're missing five valuable naval assets...

Afterthought LM... Another reason freighters aren't eye candy (which I'd forgotten but I believe I made possible)... They can carry units... so you could use em to bring your infantry faster from their rear HQs...

[LandMarine47]

Nope my opponent just got the drop me. I thought he would assault the Cheatu! Luckily my volksgrendiers were on the scene and I was able to move the infantry behind his men. So far all of them have routed into the hotels. As for my Ships those damn destroyers dealt with any and all opposition at the port! I'm holding him on the beaches near the battery and the port is Heavily Fortified. But you do have a point! Oh and BTW one of my games nearly corrupted itself! Don't know if its me or the game... And I am no Erwin Rommel but if you go against me ill put up a stif and fair fight! BTW to stop the allied armor (what's left of it) i completely blocked of all the roads but I have more cover to allied infantry.

[LandMarine47]

So what's next? So far the mod is great but there's something missing..... I know! We need to evenly distribute both sides! Going back to what I said about dividing the units to the 3 Main Assault areas (Harbor is spec ops, Beaches to the infantry) This is how I think how the set up should be. Spec ops is going In With out any Destroyers but can use Air support. The other two should be 4 each beach. Also add some French Infantry with the Canadians. Weren't they in the Fussaliers Division or French Canadians? Another thing is that you forgot the Waffen SS were with the 10th Panzers! Instead put the four trucks at the HQ but immobilize them for a few turns so the allies have a chance. Replace them with 2 or 3 Units of Waffen SS in 251's Instead of VolksGrenadiers add some Italian Costal Divisions at the radar station and 2 at the front bunkers of the Harbor so that 152MM is at least guarded. If you can add some more allied infantry (1 or 2 more Spec ops, 2 Brens 1 Vickers for main force) And you also forgot the Allies had mortars! Now I don't know if you passed the 64 Units Limit but atleast Add Mortars and Waffen SS! (Mortars for allies only)

[Ranger]

Nope my opponent just got the drop me. I thought he would assault the Cheatu! Luckily my volksgrendiers were on the scene and I was able to move the infantry behind his men. So far all of them have routed into the hotels. As for my Ships those damn destroyers dealt with any and all opposition at the port! I'm holding him on the beaches near the battery and the port is Heavily Fortified. But you do have a point! Oh and BTW one of my games nearly corrupted itself! Don't know if its me or the game... And I am no Erwin Rommel but if you go against me ill put up a stif and fair fight! BTW to stop the allied armor (what's left of it) i completely blocked of all the roads but I have more cover to allied infantry.

Question: can engineers demo tank traps and obstacles? or can they only build tank traps etc?

and now for something completely different -
I'm no Patton/Montgomery/Rommel either, but you can count on me to not care about what is and isn't fair in a fight.
If the system will let me, I'll "gouge your eye" if I get the chance.
That being said, I think LM/GL88S and I prefer a system of play that more closely emulates reality than fantasy. Speaking for myself, I'm a "friendly fire on" kind of guy. (Quick explanation in the unlikely case I'm the only one here who's played/s the FPS "Call of Duty".. I only play FPSs' with "friendly fire on". I think "magic bullets", that only hurt/kill enemys, are fantasy lameness for lazy gamers who just want instant gratification and decrie anything that requires discipline or effort, and are fearful of challenge.)

cheers,

Thomas

[LandMarine47]

Hmm you sound like an interesting Oppenent Ranger. Do you plan on joining the Normandy Tournamnets? I just applied for the Germans. And plan on showing the Allies what I'm made of! In Call of Duty I always have friendly fire on (To kill them and take their ammo ) but know I play on hardest difficulty to replicate the actual soldier who fought (Early CODS not the garbage that's out now)

[Ranger]

So what's next? So far the mod is great but there's something missing..... I know! We need to evenly distribute both sides! Going back to what I said about dividing the units to the 3 Main Assault areas (Harbor is spec ops, Beaches to the infantry) This is how I think how the set up should be. Spec ops is going In With out any Destroyers but can use Air support. The other two should be 4 each beach. Also add some French Infantry with the Canadians. Weren't they in the Fussaliers Division or French Canadians? Another thing is that you forgot the Waffen SS were with the 10th Panzers! Instead put the four trucks at the HQ but immobilize them for a few turns so the allies have a chance. Replace them with 2 or 3 Units of Waffen SS in 251's Instead of VolksGrenadiers add some Italian Costal Divisions at the radar station and 2 at the front bunkers of the Harbor so that 152MM is at least guarded. If you can add some more allied infantry (1 or 2 more Spec ops, 2 Brens 1 Vickers for main force) And you also forgot the Allies had mortars! Now I don't know if you passed the 64 Units Limit but atleast Add Mortars and Waffen SS! (Mortars for allies only)

Speaking for myself (no shit eh?), I've got lots of ideas, but I'm not sure I've play tested this scenario enough, as it currently is, to have a strong opinion about how specifically to balance and/or evenly distribute both sides. However, I suspect that evenness and balance isn't going to be achieved by making sure both sides have the same number of units etc. Case and point, Jubilee was a reinforced Canadian infantry division assaulting a single, artilery supported and fortified, German infantry regiment. The Germans didn't need any reinforcements.

I'm with you in that I'd like to figure out a way that gives both sides what they need to succeed. It'll be great to come up with a scenario in which it is HOW units/resources are deployed and used dictates which side comes out on top.

cheers,

Thomas

[LandMarine47]

Ranger it's not the units it's how you use them (Or if you can overwhelm your enemy with men) But I agree with you on that point. But this is what I've seen reasearching that there were Waffen SS and Mortars. Mortars are a must! But since the 10th Panzer is Presnet perhaps the Waffen SS can have their own HQ (Somewhere if not at the Radar Sation) And GL88's do you plan on making more maps? (Areas not shown on the acctual map) like the other beaches and the other batteries and even an airfield? Oh and Ranger this is a What If scenario so not everything has to be exactly the same? Do you think had the Allies achieved the element of surprise the raid would have been successful (GL88's Perhaps a Map where the Allies Defend Dieppe?)

[Ranger]

Ranger it's not the units it's how you use them (Or if you can overwhelm your enemy with men) But I agree with you on that point. But this is what I've seen reasearching that there were Waffen SS and Mortars. Mortars are a must! But since the 10th Panzer is Presnet perhaps the Waffen SS can have their own HQ (Somewhere if not at the Radar Sation) And GL88's do you plan on making more maps? (Areas not shown on the acctual map) like the other beaches and the other batteries and even an airfield? Oh and Ranger this is a What If scenario so not everything has to be exactly the same? Do you think had the Allies achieved the element of surprise the raid would have been successful (GL88's Perhaps a Map where the Allies Defend Dieppe?)

To be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with you (Land Marine). I was just saying I haven't played it enough to have any strong opinions quite yet.

Agreed that playing the side of the Allies in a historically accurate, exactly the same, scenario, in which the Allies get creamed on the beaches every time isn't any fun.

Element of surprise? Jubilee was doomed before the Allies even got in their boats to cross the Channel. The Combined Operations and Canadian plan was incompetently flawed. It was pure fantasy and unrealistic. Even when the main assault force practiced and rehearsed the main assault in England 4 or 5 times, with only the opposition being the English Channel and a British beach, they failed every time.
The claim that the loss of the element of surprise, resulting from the convoy firefight, is a reason for the failure of Jubilee, is a red herring. The element of surprise was never lost to begin with. Firstly, the Germans thought their convoy had been interdicted by British patrol/speed boats conducting routine harassment of German shipping. They did not realize that it was a landing force, so they never raised the alarm that an amphibious assault force was about to hit Dieppe etc. Secondly, the Germans were already on a high state of alert/readiness, and had been so for weeks, because the German command knew the tide conditions were perfect for amphibious landings. For the weeks proceeding Jubilee, the pillboxes in Dieppe were manned by German machine gunners from sundown till sunup. They were going to do this until the tide conditions were unfavorable for landings. The Germans knew August was a good time to do an amphibious raid and they were ready and waiting to be surprised by the Canadian main assault force at Dieppe. It's a travesty and tragedy of the highest order that the brave young Canadians/Brits/Yanks/Free-French were not allowed to disappoint the German machine gunners (who would have preferred sleeping in bed instead of than spending all night in a cold, damp, pill box, waiting for something they probably didn't think was going to happen because they didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to try).

And by the way, every lesson they needed to learn for Dieppe/Jubilee and D-Day to be successful they had learned at Gallipoli in 1915. It's a damning shame that so many young men had to die for the lesson learned at Dieppe by Ham Roberts, Mountbatten, Churchill, and Montgomery, to be : "wow.. I just got a flash of deja vu, shit... didn't we already learn this shit at Gallipoli?"

Cheers,

Thomas

[LandMarine47]

Hadn't thought about that. Dieppe was a damn tragedy. But the sacrifice of the soldiers gave way to make sure D-Day was a success. I mean had the landings failed Stalin would be stuck at the Polish Border and the Grinder In Italy would get worse. Had D-Day failed the Germans would have been on even higher alert and the Allies would have 200,000 Men gone. But there were factor the Allies hadn't used at Dieppe. The Paratroopers. But since this was a raid not an invasion the allies failed miserably. Dieppe should have never been attempted and the Allies paid for it in Blood. As for my past post I'm trying to HELP the Allies! I want them to have more Mortars MG's and Spec Ops. The thing I want to Germans to have are some Italians to replace the Volksgreandiers and some Waffen SS. Even had the raid been a success the Allies would have lost too many men. A Counter attack by the 10th Panzers and Waffen SS would have ripped apart whoever was left. I think the Allies used up all their luck at St. Nazaire and for the rest of the war the Germans were on guard ESPECIALLY at a port like Dieppe

[LandMarine47]

And Gallipoli was a goddamn shame. The ANZAC took unacceptable losses because the Allies underestimated their Turkish Foes who were reinforced with the latest German Equipment who was BETTER than the Brits and French. And they also chose to land at a GODDAMN CLIFF! This is WW1 were everything was defenses. And this was near Istanbul so the Turks were on guard 24/7 and motivated that if they lost there their empire would fall. WW1 was just a horrible time for Military Tech at the time. The world hadn't fully adapted to all the new emerging technologies and for that all of Europe Suffered. After the world war next to all of Europe's Empires Fell and those that survived their colonies were in deep trouble with many rebel factions. Point is Amphibious Landings should be a last resort option and should always be avoided if possible

[LandMarine47]

I wanna upload screenshot but it keeps saying "File to big max size allowed 256 KiB" Help?

[GottaLove88s]

I wanna upload screenshot but it keeps saying "File to big max size allowed 256 KiB" Help?

Use Dropbox LM... See this link -> viewtopic.php?f=87&t=39487&hilit=dropbox+account