GJS'44 Campaign Main Thread - Final June 16th 1944 Tournamen

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GottaLove88s
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Waiting for Caen to end?

Post by GottaLove88s »

Well, phew... it's over...

it looks like congratulations should go to both commanders in Caen... to the Allies for a shockingly stunning victory :shock: ... and to the Germans for graciously enduring it to the finish... :cry:

So, the Allied tit-for-tat response for the annihilation in Cristot is complete... However, as a neutral observer, it begins to look like Eastern Front 'rules' appear to be emerging in Normandy?

The Red Cross has been asked to investigate incidences of surrendering combatants having white flags shot out of their hands... Any corroboration?

Onwards gentlemen... Meanwhile, one of our wiser and more experienced commanders will be taking a well earned period of rest and recuperation... Popular among his troops, and chivalrous to his enemies, Morge will be much missed (until his welcome return! ;-))
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
Honour79
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Waiting for Caen to end?

Post by Honour79 »

The rumours are spreading in the German ranks: The Allies aren't taking any SS-prisoners.

Hey! You began this massacre!
So, SS won't take any allied prisoners.

Blood for blood and your blood will be the one that floods the French soil...
jcb989
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Waiting for Caen to end?

Post by jcb989 »

GottaLove88s wrote:Morge will be much missed (until his welcome return! ;-))
:shock:
cavehobbit
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Waiting for Caen to end?

Post by cavehobbit »

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GottaLove88s
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Waiting for Caen to end?

Post by GottaLove88s »

Thanks P-A. Great mapping as always!

Am tied up with work, but will try to get Caen 2 going by Friday night/Saturday...
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
GottaLove88s
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Waiting for Caen to end?

Post by GottaLove88s »

PROPOSAL FOR DISCUSSION : Cancelled Assaults...

The last two turns have seen two BG dissolutions... of an Allied BG in Cristot (by an SS panzer BG that quickly read the Strat Map and realised that the Allies would be forced to cross a bridge and merely laid in wait)... and an almost, tit for tat response, where an German SS BG was eliminated in Caen (by a freshly reinforced elite para brigade where the commander was experienced on the map, and knew that his enemy's approach, funnelled by forest, directly towards a fortified castle, was akin to the Charge of the Light Brigade...

I've received a proposal from players on this... which feels reasonable... so I'd like to put it up for discussion by players and commanders...

As the Rules presently read, both sides must (i) hold at least one flag, and (ii) not lose all of their units on the map to avoid dissolution... in addition, (iii) if the losing BG has no line of retreat (ie. a friendly flagged, neighbouring, empty sector to withdraw to) it is also dissolved... Condition (iii) was directly responsible for the forced assault at Cristot. Condition (iii) was not an issue at Caen, as the attacker could, theoretically, have decided to establish a defensive style of play and just keep 1 flag... Maybe? I haven't tried this on the new map?

However, the rules as presently written, do not permit an attacker to voluntarily cancel his assault, if he realises that it's going to be expensive...

So, here is the proposal... For future ASD and AFD (attacker) games, the attacker may choose to declare a 'cancelled assault', pulling as many of his units as possible back to his withdrawal VP flag (or brigade HQ flag, or similar)... and then post a screenshot, when he has completed this manoeuvre... Any units proven to have withdrawn to within 4 spaces of his withdrawal VP flag (and not the wrong side of some natural obstacle, like a cliff or river), would be permitted to make an orderly retreat back to the sector, from which they came... provided that sector remains empty (ie. no other BG followed them up)...

Thoughts gentlemen?
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
cavehobbit
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Waiting for Caen to end?

Post by cavehobbit »

GottaLove88s wrote:PROPOSAL FOR DISCUSSION : Cancelled Assaults...

So, here is the proposal... For future ASD and AFD (attacker) games, the attacker may choose to declare a 'cancelled assault', pulling as many of his units as possible back to his withdrawal VP flag (or brigade HQ flag, or similar)... and then post a screenshot, when he has completed this manoeuvre... Any units proven to have withdrawn to within 4 spaces of his withdrawal VP flag (and not the wrong side of some natural obstacle, like a cliff or river), would be permitted to make an orderly retreat back to the sector, from which they came... provided that sector remains empty (ie. no other BG followed them up)...

Thoughts gentlemen?
Really great idea! :D
jcb989
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Waiting for Caen to end?

Post by jcb989 »

The rule's concept sounds good. I think it maybe would be better if the cancellation is only possible within the first 1-2 turns of play though.

One of the things restricting any chance for mounting a defense at Caen June 10th PM was the narrow area of deployment. I do not think an effective defense even of the one flag was possible as the map and forces stands. Cancelled assualt calls should be made in the first or second turn of the game, and then it won't matter where the forces are located etc etc all the extra tracking. Any units killed in those two turns would still be KIA.
joncorcuera
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Waiting for Caen to end?

Post by joncorcuera »

For me i see no problem On this. But we Will have to clarifiy all the possible options On this
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Waiting for Caen to end?

Post by morge4 »

jcb989 wrote:The rule's concept sounds good. I think it maybe would be better if the cancellation is only possible within the first 1-2 turns of play though. ... Any units killed in those two turns would still be KIA.
I like the idea and like the restriction to the first couple of turns, also. All kills stand...either side. :wink:
cavehobbit
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Waiting for Caen to end?

Post by cavehobbit »

I think the idea of a restriction to a just a few turns is good, but I think it should be extended to 3 or possibly 4 turns to give the attacking side the chance to find any weak spots in the defense (if there are any...).
GottaLove88s
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Paras easily repel the S

Post by GottaLove88s »

Hmmm... Great feedback guys... Thanks for your comments...

I believe we're all agreed that some form of 'Cancelled Assault' manoeuvre sounds like an improvement to the campaign.

However, Justin sensibly points out that this shouldn't be open to abuse, where an attacker is allowed to spend 15-20 turns kicking the stuffing out of frontline enemy troops, effectively teasing them, and then just slips back to the sector from which they came... I like the idea of a turn limit, after which assaults are considered 'committed'.

Full commitment after 1-2 turns feels too short though (somehow, makes me remember my first gf, lol!). Some opponents might simply do nothing for 2 turns, to sucker you in (Jcb, you in particular come to mind! ;-)).

Do we want players to cancel assaults the instant they've seen the map? (could become boring, and might make commanders lazy in not bothering to 'read' the strat map)... Or do we want players to open a scenario, realise that a map might be trouble for them, but still have a go at making a reasonable attack, to test how events might turn out?

Personally, I'd prefer the latter... And if that's the case, how many turns (of a 20 turn scenario) does it take for an attacker to move his units into assaulting positions, to make an effective assault over a few turns, to hit a brick wall and then come to a decision that retreat may be wiser, and then to be able to withdraw as many as possible of his units to within 4 squares of his 'retreat VP flag' (not the wrong side of rivers or cliffs)???

That feels like more than 1-2 turns to me?

What do you reckon guys?
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
LandMarine47
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Paras easily repel the S

Post by LandMarine47 »

GL88's Aren't I supposed to be in the German High Command? I signed up for it
GottaLove88s
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Paras easily repel the S

Post by GottaLove88s »

LM, You're on the German team... CaveHobbit has been the German commander for awhile now... You will be able to read the German private thread in Leagues & Tourneys... Recommend you challenge your team mates to some Normandy Ninjas battles, so they can assess your skill level, and figure out which BGs to assign you for June 11th...

Don't worry, you have time. I believe the last battle for June 10th is going to be a night epic between the player giants, Jcb and Mlazar... :shock: :shock: :shock:
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
GottaLove88s
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Paras easily repel the S

Post by GottaLove88s »

GottaLove88s wrote:Hmmm... Great feedback guys... Thanks for your comments...

I believe we're all agreed that some form of 'Cancelled Assault' manoeuvre sounds like an improvement to the campaign.

However, Justin sensibly points out that this shouldn't be open to abuse, where an attacker is allowed to spend 15-20 turns kicking the stuffing out of frontline enemy troops, effectively teasing them, and then just slips back to the sector from which they came... I like the idea of a turn limit, after which assaults are considered 'committed'.

Full commitment after 1-2 turns feels too short though (somehow, makes me remember my first gf, lol!). Some opponents might simply do nothing for 2 turns, to sucker you in (Jcb, you in particular come to mind! ;-)).

Do we want players to cancel assaults the instant they've seen the map? (could become boring, and might make commanders lazy in not bothering to 'read' the strat map)... Or do we want players to open a scenario, realise that a map might be trouble for them, but still have a go at making a reasonable attack, to test how events might turn out?

Personally, I'd prefer the latter... And if that's the case, how many turns (of a 20 turn scenario) does it take for an attacker to move his units into assaulting positions, to make an effective assault over a few turns, to hit a brick wall and then come to a decision that retreat may be wiser, and then to be able to withdraw as many as possible of his units to within 4 squares of his 'retreat VP flag' (not the wrong side of rivers or cliffs)???

That feels like more than 1-2 turns to me?

What do you reckon guys?
Hey guys,

I don't want to push something through without everyone having had a chance to discuss... In the absence of new chat I'm thinking maybe 10 turns...?

GL88
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
jcb989
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Paras easily repel the S

Post by jcb989 »

I think 10 turns will be unfair to the defenders and would advocate for not more than 5 turns.
Also I do not wish to include the "rally around the flag" requirement, because I think it will be ineffective to the concept.
I would rather propose retreat must be called by turn 3 and game is ended on turn 5, giving less exposure to the attacker from opportunistic counter-attack.
But I of course will abide by the ruling of the court, just offering opinions.
GottaLove88s
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Paras easily repel the S

Post by GottaLove88s »

Caen - June 10th PM Battle Result: Lt Col Morge4 26/12SS [FwMRPS] ASD v Maj Gen Jcb 6al/6 [ATMRS]

Stunning para defence of Caen decimates the assaulting SS brigade, which is now dissolved for only four Allied losses.

6al/6 holds in Caen
26/12SS lost all units and is dissolved
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
GottaLove88s
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Paras easily repel the S

Post by GottaLove88s »

Although some of Maj Gen Jcb's more squeamish (for which read 'jealous of his victory') colleagues have begun to Nazi-salute him behind his back, for his 'no prisoners' tactics, Jcb's overwhelming and necessary success at Caen has caught the eye of WInston himself. The PM has insisted that 'this man' be immediately promoted to Lt General and decorated with an Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE)

Latest ranks on June 10th...

Allies
Col JonCorcuera MC (Supreme Allied Commander)
Lt Gen Jcb989 OBE
Lt Col Hidde
Lt Col iProp
Maj CoreySr
Capt MKboy1313

Germans
Lt Col CaveHobbit (German High Kommandant)
Lt Gen Mlazar
Lt Col Morge4
Lt Col Mowby
Lt Col Honour79 RK m EL
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
jcb989
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Paras easily repel the S

Post by jcb989 »

Thank you. "Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall"

Proverbs 16:18
GottaLove88s
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Re: GJS'44 - D-Day - June 10th PM - Paras easily repel the S

Post by GottaLove88s »

JUNE 10th NIGHT STATUS UPDATE


JUNE 10th AM BATTLES

Hermanville: Lt Col Mowby 192/21 [APS] ASD v Lt Col iProp 27/3 [MRS]
Pegasus Bridge: Maj CoreySr 30/79 [ATMRS] attack/no move AFD v Lt Gen Mlazar 914/352 [FwPS]
Bieville: Lt Col JonCorcuera 1/79 [MRS] AFD v Maj Honour Ost 642/716 [ARPS]
Cristot: Maj Honour II/12/12SS [MRPS] ASD v Maj MKboy 231/50 [S][/color]


JUNE 10th PM BATTLES

Abbaye: Col JonCorcuera 22/7 [S] ME v Lt Col Honour79 Ost 411/716 [MPS]
Benouville: Lt Col CaveHobbit 858/346 [PS] ASD v Maj CoreySr 30/79 [ATMRS]
Pegasus Bridge: Lt Col Hidde 9/3cdn [MRS] AFD v Lt Gen Mlazar 914/352 [FwPS]
Caen: Lt Col Morge4 26/12SS [FwMRPS] AFD v Maj Gen Jcb 22/7 6al/6 (plus re-org from 22/7)[ATMRS]


JUNE 10th NIGHT BATTLE

This sets the conclusion of June 10th up to be a Clash of the Titans, between our only two Lieutenant Generals of the Campaign...

Caen 2: Lt Gen Mlazar 25/12SS [MRPS] AFD v Lt Gen Jcb 22/7 6al/6 (survivors from June 10th PM)[ATMRS]

The ball breaker... Caen 2 is THE map to play. Full urban environment. Night time with halved LOS. German SS enjoys the firepower again, but High Command have learned to select a wiser approach... As a word of warning, retreating commander, Lt Col Morge4, reports that the defending paras appear to enjoy unheard of quantities of mortar fire and ATGs...
:shock: :shock: :shock:
SCENARIO LINKS
Seelow'45 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=313&t=55132
Normandy'44 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42094
Dieppe'42 -> www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=42347
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