St Nazaire help

[timek28]

Hi guys,

Is there any way to get a DV at this mission? How am I supposed to stop British destroyer from blowing up the docks? It has strength of 18 and Bf110 and local fort cannot do anything to harm it. Also my core is full and I cannot buy strategic bombers that could sink him. I even tried disbanding core units in order to have new slots but even after I do that I cannot buy new core units. Maybe if I disbanded 2-3 core units, but that would be too much of a cost and I would hardly be able to stop Brits on northwest if I did that. I'm really stuck. It is relatively easy to get a MV and follow historical occurrences but I thought getting a DV might give me more prestige which is esseitnal since I didn't import core but got what AI gave me.

Other than that DLC west is great. It has really unorthodox missions, that require high flexibility and are complete opposite of brute force, large core missions from the DLC east. Although I'm not sure how historically accurate are military informations. Second mission and third mission in 42 involve lots of allied units on land of France in 1942, and I never heard that they had that many units (artillery and tanks included) except for commandos. Also how come that in second mission Germans receive reinforcements in form of conscripts and T34 tanks? OK captured T34s are possible (albeit uneconomical to transport from east), but conscripts?!? Is that prisoned Soviets forced to fight for Germans or something similar?

But other than that game is awesome. Good work guys

[ThvN]

I believe you don't have to destroy the destroyer . Did the Allied succeed in taking over the dock? Because that is what you have to prevent.

If I remember correctly from the beta, the destroyer is supposed to arrive, and spawn some commando units. These will attempt to take over the three 'Normandie dock' victory hexes. When this happens, the destroyer will blow up and a DV will no longer be possible, even if you recapture them all. So ignore the destroyer coming in, and concentrate on defending the Normandie dock hexes, see if that works better for you.

[timek28]

I believe you don't have to destroy the destroyer . Did the Allied succeed in taking over the dock? Because that is what you have to prevent.

If I remember correctly from the beta, the destroyer is supposed to arrive, and spawn some commando units. These will attempt to take over the three 'Normandie dock' victory hexes. When this happens, the destroyer will blow up and a DV will no longer be possible, even if you recapture them all. So ignore the destroyer coming in, and concentrate on defending the Normandie dock hexes, see if that works better for you.

This is quite possible. As I recall I lost one or two victory hexes after which destroyer blew up. Commandos appear very fast and out of nowhere (which is kind of strange - but I guess it simulates covert operation s). It would be better if they came on sea transports or as paratroopers or something... I didn't expect them at all. So I had to repeat the mission. now I will try to land falschrimjagers ASAP on one bank of docks and some kradschutzen and AA battery on the other side in order to prevent capturing. It won't be easy though as commandos have 4 stars but at least I don't have to destroy the destroyer

[GSlapshot]

Yes the above post is correct. You should get a message saying commandos have landed and they start moving toward the dock area. Make sure you have a good defender in the area and concentrate your Me 110's to support. Also watch out for other commandos trying to get into St NAzaire from the SW.

[captainjack]

I find St Nazaire quite challenging even at Lieutenant and Colonel. If using the supplied core, I usually drop the Fj's near the west side and send the Kradschutzen to defend the dock hexes. Repositioning the nearby AA gun can also buy you an extra turn or two by blocking attacks from the West. Of course, having three (or more) units tied up in defence of the dock gates makes defending the northern side quite a bit harder, but the ability to rush things around, block well and patch holes in a hurry without losing any units will also be useful in later scenarios, so you might as well start learning here!

The destroyer is nearly impossible to sink (it has a very high defence hero as well as 18 strength) but if all of these dock hexes aren't captured, the destroyer doesn't blow the gates (not in my experience). For extra insurance, making a token attack on it drops its ammo to zero - I don't know if this matters or not.
I have tried importing strategic bombers into my core, but the powerful allied fighters later on and the scarity of units to provide fighter cover usually makes a 110 Tac Bomber more usable. And occasionally (once so far) you can sink commando-carrying submarines with Tac bombers - this was payback for all those days when I've get five or six Evade! results in a row when attacking subs.

[timek28]

I finished mission with a DV. Quite a fun mission. I prevented capturing of dock hexes and destroyer just stood there. With FJers and kradschutzen it was more or less an easy job despite very experienced commando units. I had some losses though. On the northwest it is important to form a protective wall with strong artillery support of three artillery units and that wall will be more or less impenetrable. As a matter of fact with this strategy I was able to annihilate the whole English force (2 attack waves) and reclaim all VHs except 2 English airfields. The problem remains prestige, as there are few bad units in given core (10.5 artillery, Flame tank and Somma tank catch the eye first). I was able to convert 10.5 into 21.5 and Somma into PzIVE (I didn't have prestige for F/2), so core is a bit better now. Also it seems DV didn't give me more prestige than MV, which is shame. Maybe something else is given instead (better reinforcement units in future)? Otherwise what is the point of DV?

I'm moving on to next mission which also requires interesting tactics. I will probably try to land my FSers behind enemy lines in order too kill weak saboteur units that are jeopardizing trains first, and then try to break thorough enemy lines from east and north..

[captainjack]

I just replayed St Nazaire on General (*) with an imported core I had developed since 1.14 came out.
The core was pretty strong - I had a good stock of experienced units with useful heros (artillery with +2 and +3 attacks and FJ with +3 defence and some decent hero tanks), though I only had 3 SE units as one of my SE Grenadiers had met an unfortunate end in Demyansk Pocket.

The 1.14 hero reinforcement units from the 39/40/41 DLCs came in handy. Rudel in a 110 is pretty devastating and the hero 109 from one of the DLCs made life a lot easier in the air. Oleh Dir's superfast Gebirgsjager unit was also valuable in this scenario. There is still a lot of rushing about and you have to plan carefully, but I always felt I had a chance rather than relying on luck. My 3*, +3 attack Stug 3 was very effective. Left on its own in the clear, infantry units would attack it and get a good pummeling so I could finish them off next turn, and it provided excellent supporting fire.

The same core caused total devastation in the second scenario, though there was a bit of luck in this, with a few 10 hits when I attacked, and a few of my units taking 7 or 8 suppressions but no kills when attacked.

I have previously found West 42/43 to be really challenging on Colonel (and even on Lieutenant), so I am looking forwards to finding out how I get on in teh other scenarios.

(*) going from Colonel to general was too big a step for me, so I set AI prestige to 130% not 150% and set my own experience and prestige to 80%.

[ThvN]

Also it seems DV didn't give me more prestige than MV, which is shame. Maybe something else is given instead (better reinforcement units in future)? Otherwise what is the point of DV?

Strange, DV should give 300 prestige, MV only 200pr?

I'm moving on to next mission which also requires interesting tactics. I will probably try to land my FSers behind enemy lines in order too kill weak saboteur units that are jeopardizing trains first, and then try to break thorough enemy lines from east and north..

Good idea, I often dropped the paratroopers between the southermost train and the Spanish border. But be careful, the British have brought some very tough units, esp. your northern group will run into stiff opposition. As a tip, something that often seems to be overlooked, the trains can be reinforced. Not helpful if they're completely surrounded, but it might let them live a couple of extra turns longer, which can make this mission a lot easier.

[timek28]

Strange, DV should give 300 prestige, MV only 200pr?

Wow what a difference Just kidding. Well it was almost undetectable since it is such a small difference in terms of gain. But I guess It reflects reality at that period, and with Germans pouring main resources in east instead of west.

Good idea, I often dropped the paratroopers between the southermost train and the Spanish border. But be careful, the British have brought some very tough units, esp. your northern group will run into stiff opposition. As a tip, something that often seems to be overlooked, the trains can be reinforced. Not helpful if they're completely surrounded, but it might let them live a couple of extra turns longer, which can make this mission a lot easier.

With this strategy I annihilated British troops pretty easily. Especially in the north since there is rough terrain out there and since I have strong artillery support. Also there are 2 British tanks that try to flank over the river (they come out of nowhere it seems??), but they are easy to destroy once they are caught at open on the river.

The following missions are getting tougher and tougher though. Some small raid missions are easy. There are lots of units that are infused into the core before 43 (when the major problems begin), but most of those units are weak (except for 2 KV1s and 2 T34s). Like I said I cannot find the meaning or reason behind getting conscripts (what is that Volkstrum or militia?), so I sold them immoderately as prestige is really low in these missions. As you said one gets only 300 PP for DV sometimes 500 but rarely more than that, while damage is 2 times that number if not more, so elite replacements are very rare.

I also lost around least 2-3 core units in following missions (some recons and maybe something else albeit weak), but since they are infused and weak units I am able to keep a relatively strong core which was given to me at St Nazaire. 4 SE tanks, and around 5 core tanks give me a good edge for overwhelming enemy. I didn't import my core from east (maybe I should have).

Diepee is very tough mission (a lot tougher than St Nazaire) as British attacking force is all very large with lots of tanks and lots of aircraft. I had quite a few losses out there, since I was playing for the first time. British have lots of Churchill tanks and tanks in general, and it is best if player is able to sink them before they get to the shore at all...

I just came to first mission of 43' - Syracuse. Mission looks hard as hell on the first try out. I'm contemplating tactic here, but I'm not sure why the mission doesn't end when I transfer 7 Itallian units to safety (like it says)? Mission apparently goes on to the last turn despite escorting Italians early. First wave of attacks is hard but I hang on with no major losses. However around 13-14th turn around 10 or more Allied planes appear and new wave of ground units (I already destroyed some 6-7 US aricraft if not more). At this moment it is almost impossible to defend airspace (with only one flak and 4 battered airplanes from previous fights). I am definitely doing something wrong since it cannot be this hard but if player was meant to hold on till the last turn than it is a hell of a mission :

[ThvN]

Like I said I cannot find the meaning or reason behind getting conscripts (what is that Volkstrum or militia?), so I sold them immoderately as prestige is really low in these missions. As you said one gets only 300 PP for DV sometimes 500 but rarely more than that, while damage is 2 times that number if not more, so elite replacements are very rare.

I think the conscripts are supposed to be Osttruppen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osttruppen
As an interesting anecdote, such troops were even involved in the last fighting on the Western front, and met a sad end: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_uprising_on_Texel

I just came to first mission of 43' - Syracuse. Mission looks hard as hell on the first try out. I'm contemplating tactic here, but I'm not sure why the mission doesn't end when I transfer 7 Itallian units to safety (like it says)? Mission apparently goes on to the last turn despite escorting Italians early. First wave of attacks is hard but I hang on with no major losses. However around 13-14th turn around 10 or more Allied planes appear and new wave of ground units (I already destroyed some 6-7 US aricraft if not more). At this moment it is almost impossible to defend airspace (with only one flak and 4 battered airplanes from previous fights). I am definitely doing something wrong since it cannot be this hard but if player was meant to hold on till the last turn than it is a hell of a mission :

You are supposed to evacuate as many Italians as you can off the map; the scenario should end immediately when there are no more Italian units on the map. The number you managed to get off determines a DV or MV, alternatively you can stay and fight and win that way but that is very costly. You do not want to fight to the last turns, the allies are overwhelming here.

As a hint, you can also evacuate your own core units off the map into the reserve, and then deploy a fresh core unit! This can be helpful if you have more core units than you can deploy and one takes a beating.

[timek28]

I think the conscripts are supposed to be Osttruppen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osttruppen
As an interesting anecdote, such troops were even involved in the last fighting on the Western front, and met a sad end: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_uprising_on_Texel

Very interesting information I always thought there were such units, but as far as I know they were mostly incorporated in SS regiments, such as units in Bosnia, Croatia and some units in Russia (Tartars or so). Also the story about their end is really interesting and disturbing...

You are supposed to evacuate as many Italians as you can off the map; the scenario should end immediately when there are no more Italian units on the map. The number you managed to get off determines a DV or MV, alternatively you can stay and fight and win that way but that is very costly. You do not want to fight to the last turns, the allies are overwhelming here.

As a hint, you can also evacuate your own core units off the map into the reserve, and then deploy a fresh core unit! This can be helpful if you have more core units than you can deploy and one takes a beating.

Thanks for the tip. As I thought I didn't read the briefing well enough as that condition is probably stated out there. With that in mind it was a lot easier to pull out. Also units in reserve are a new and well thought feature of game and it helps a lot. Somebody maybe mentioned unit count when you pull units out (like in Mesina) and that would maybe also be a good new feature. Too bad Italian auxiliary units are only there to help for next 2 or 3 missions. They are very helpful despite being weaker than German units.

Missions around Sicily are very fun and challenging in the same time, and I had deja vu feeling of trying to stop Soviets in 44 with swarms of US troops pouring on my positions. I somehow managed to get DVs in all missions but have lost 2 SE (Pz3M) tanks in the process (at Etna line North), which is a real shame. I'm not replaying anything (unless some major loss occurs - such as Fw190 goes down - I cannot afford to loose planes) as I want to try to make game as real as possible and not gimmicky The good news is that I was able to get rid of all the obsolete equipment and my tanks now compose of 3 Panthers, 1 Tiger, 2 Pz IVHs and 1 Pz 3M. I have 6 planes in core too (2 experimental) which is really heplful. It could have been better but allies struck really hard at Sicily. Also I think I will buy additional AA guns as there are simply too many US planes at the times that compromise my defenses greatly. Allied ground forces are not a problem, but with that kind of air support they can be.

Right now I'm at the Torrento mission, and it seems it will be very fun.

I give props to the developers, they created great campaign and scenarios. Very versatile and new, and require dynamic thinking and actions

[captainjack]

So much for trashing the opposition! I ran out of prestige so badly I was leaving damaged units on the reserve list rather than lose 2 or 3* of experience and had to to put 109s against Mustangs in Italy - even a 4* 109 has no chance. I did scrape through to the end of the campaign, but decided to cut my losses and start at St Nazaire again after resetting my General prestige back to 100%. I also learned that the destroyer can blow up the dock gates even with no ammunition, and the key is to keep control of at least one of the docks hexes at all times.

[ThvN]

Yes, prestige can be quite tight in this GC. Kerensky added a lot of 'gift units', the idea is to keep the best and sell the rest. A good airforce can help minimize losses, but is very expensive by itself. Those Bf 109's are not good enough, I usually stop at the 'F' version, and try to buy Fw 190's. Trying to get mass attack bonuses to prevent return fire is crucial.

[timek28]

Yes GC West is generally pretty hard. Besides the missions of chasing the Italians you are put under constant pressure from countless US and British forces. Their ground forces are manageable, but their air power is tremendous. Gift units are very helpful, since there is not enough prestige for elite replacements AND upgrade of units. But then it is a trade off again. I found out this in Messina scenario when I was supposed to transport 18 units to Italian mainland, while I had only 24 units (core and auxiliary units together). I had to leave only 2 units at one position to defend it in order to have enough units to transport.....

As far as planes go, I found out that as soon as Fw190 becomes available buy it. I have 3 of them and one Bf110G. I'm not sure about this bomber though. It really isn't effective at all in 43 (at four stars), It destroys 1-2 SPs on hard targets and 1-3 SP on soft. Usually it destroys 1 SP... And it is especially not effective as fighter-bomber against US planes... I might be going for a Me410 instead, but I'm not sure where I will find prestige for it. I would be happiest if I had at least one Ju87G for some real bombing, but at this phase of the war it would be too volatile and require too much patronizing.

But yeah forget Bf109, and buy Fw190s. US air force is too strong to gamble around with weak planes. Instead buy at least 2 8.8 flaks (12.8 when it comes), and have at least 3 experienced fighters for backup. Getting 2 bonus planes at Messina is a MUST also.

[captainjack]

I agree about the FW - normally I upgrade all 109s as soon as FW appears, but life gets very hard when you have no prestige! The upgrade from 110 to 410 is worthwhile if you have the prestige (and even more so if you have Rudel). Rudel in a 410 is great for clearing out churchills, heavy artillery and crusaders and anything without air defence. He's pretty good against light cruisers as well if you can tolerate a bit of damage.

Replaying 42/32 I now realise that my prestige woes earlier were not due to having 80% prestige (though that didn't help) but mostly due to playing very badly. This time round I'm playing better, so taking much fewer casualties, which means less prestige on repair and more for upgrades. I haven't even had to sell any of the reinforcement units yet and have a Tiger and a Panther plus a full set of FWs. From what I remember of West 44 I will be selling all my spares pretty quickly.

[timek28]

I agree about the FW - normally I upgrade all 109s as soon as FW appears, but life gets very hard when you have no prestige! The upgrade from 110 to 410 is worthwhile if you have the prestige (and even more so if you have Rudel). Rudel in a 410 is great for clearing out churchills, heavy artillery and crusaders and anything without air defence. He's pretty good against light cruisers as well if you can tolerate a bit of damage.

Everybody talks about Rudel guy... Is there any way to get Rudel in GC West buy playing with default core (not imported one)? From what I read around the forum that guy is given only in certain mission in GC39 East... It's a pity if it is only possible way to get him He would definitely help as Churchill tanks are really a menace, and it takes forever to destroy them.

On the side note I bought Me410 as I had some spare prestige eventually. I think it will be good addition (not a great one). I would be much happier with Ju87G or at least Hs129, but I need Me410 because it can protect itself for a turn or two, while the other two planes are just invitations for enemy fighters.

Replaying 42/32 I now realise that my prestige woes earlier were not due to having 80% prestige (though that didn't help) but mostly due to playing very badly. This time round I'm playing better, so taking much fewer casualties, which means less prestige on repair and more for upgrades. I haven't even had to sell any of the reinforcement units yet and have a Tiger and a Panther plus a full set of FWs. From what I remember of West 44 I will be selling all my spares pretty quickly.

Uh. So West 44 is even harder? That makes sense due to Normandy and everything... Well I sold most of the unusable units (stationary paks, some Italian auxiliaries and recons, and a couple of T34s). My core is pretty good now, so I'm playing on card of good experienced core. I still need one more artillery piece as I have only 3. Also I'm looking forward to replace my Pz3Ms (which are doing very good job for now), into Panthers as soon as possible. PzIVHs can still do a very good job, and have one more stronger iteration (PzIVJ). And this is very important as every upgrade is a blessing with this little prestige.