Heavy Chariot with Light Spear

[Zephyr40k]

Heavy Chariot with Light Spear

In a recent FAQ Slitherine recently stipulated that Heavy Chariots with Light Spear can receive both POAs, 'if both qualify.' So I'm trying to come up with a list of scenarios in which that would actually happen, to see how likely that is... and hence to determine if Light Spear for a Heavy Chariot is worth the extra points.

So, both POAs will be gained if and only if:

In the impact phase, the Heavy Chariot gets its HCh POA + (and no other POAs), but then the opposing BG also gets one and only one positive POA. Or, when the HCr gets the HCr POA and one other POa, and the enemy gets two POAs. Therefore the POAs will cancel out and then the Light Spear POA will kick in.

So, here is my list of scenarios where this would occur. Let me know if I am wrong or if I have missed anything. All assume clear terrain.


- The HCr charges HF with Impact Foot (and neither side has any other POAs)
- The HCr charges uphill into non-lancer cav, or HF that is not pike, spear, or impact foot. (And neither side has any other POAs in effect) Then the HCr gets its HCR POA against the enemy and the target does not get any other POAs except the 'uphill' one.
- The HCr charges uphill into MF with Impact Foot (hey, it could happen). HCr gets 2+ (HCr & Mtd vs. MF) and the MF get 2+ (uphill & impact ft. vs. mounted) resulting in 0 net POA, so then the Lt Spear kicks in.

Did I miss any scenarios?

[batesmotel]

HF with Lt. Spear would apply in the same cases as impact foot so that covers more HF. Also MF uphill with light spear.

Chris

[grahambriggs]

Another scenario is vs MF offensive or defensive spearmen in flat open terrain. The chariots get the + for fighting MF in the open. The MF get a spear +. Since there a re no net POAs the light spear + also counts.

compare with cavalry or knight lancers who only get the POA for fighting MF in the open. The heavy Chariots are the only shock mounted who get this benefit.

[paullongmore]

Presumably non-light spear armed Hch.

One thing to note is that Ls armed Hch are the only way of being + vs legion (Impact HF) on the flat at impact

[paullongmore]

One thing that used to trouble me in FOG is that as previously mentioned Light Spear armed Hvy Chariots are the only thing at + vs Legionaries at impact.

Early Carthage has LS Hvy Chariots so why didnt Late Carthage use these legion killers.

Fortunately at V2 I resolved this quandry when I realised Late Carthage got Elephants. Evens at impact with an extra dice and + in melee. Not as big a difference as it seems due to the legion normally being better than average but there is also the extra - for losing to EL

[grahambriggs]

I've assumed that the plus against legions is a bit of an accident. I can't imagine that spear armed chariots were able to charge down legions any better than cavalry.

[paullongmore]

I think from a rule writing viewpoint it is difficult to represent chariots power vs infantry in the Chariot period

and their obvious inferiority to cavalry (due to their total replacement by them) in the later periods.

Infact I don't think FOG does to bad compared to other rules in their representation (in DBM Early Carthage Chariots are superior Knights)

[pyruse]

If the chariots are Superior or Elite, and the infantry are Average or Poor it gets the right effect.

[paullongmore]

Are there any Elite Chariots

[hazelbark]

Are there any Elite Chariots

NO

[philqw78]

Nope.

Off the top of my head armies that get elites are:
Mid and Late Republican Romans, triarii or Veteran legions, 6/18
Thematic and Nike Byzantine, Verangian Guard and kataphractoi , 2/10
Mamluk, erm, Mamluks, 16
Later Ottoman, Qapu Khalki, 6
Ancient Brits, naked fanatics, 8
Mongol Invasion and Conquest, Guard cavalry, 4
Gauls, not naked fanatics, soldurii or something like that, 8
Aechemenid Persian, early and late, apple bearers and cavalry, 6
Alec Mac and Seleucids, Lancer cavalry, 4

Think that's it

[kevinj]

Phil, given that you have the army I'm amazed you missed the Aztecs 0-12 Cuachiqueh!

[philqw78]

D'oh
and that means that there must be others in that book.

Olmec? (which is much easer to spell than whatever you called the suit wearers)

[kevinj]

I can't find any more in Blood and Gold. Cuachiqueh is what they're called in the book, I call them Eagles and Jaguars because those are the figures I use...

[philqw78]

Can't the aztecs have allies that are not actually Aztec, but are still elites. Some sort of city states that have an ally list but no independant list

[kevinj]

Yes the Triple Alliance Allies, but they're under the Aztec list, nobody else can have them and the 0-4 Elites from the Ally reduce the maximum from the main list. And they're called Cuachiqueh as well!

[grahambriggs]

Yes the Triple Alliance Allies, but they're under the Aztec list, nobody else can have them and the 0-4 Elites from the Ally reduce the maximum from the main list. And they're called Cuachiqueh as well!

Yes, it's the same military system, just that Tlacopan and Tetzcoco (which with Tenochtitlan of the Mexica formed the three cities of the triple alliance) sometimes seemed to be able to deploy separately and the logistics issues were such that the army had to divide up to move about the countryside.

The central American allies also had the same military system, it's just we didn't think they'd have enough cuachiqueh men to have an elite battle group.

In terms of how to depict them, the cuachiqueh did have their own costume in yellow. However, it was more the case that they were allowed, but not obliged to wear that in battle. Since they were promoted through the ranks of the other units first, they could wear pretty much any uniform they wanted. I have mine in the yellow as it's easy to tell them apart from the military orders that way (who I have as red and blue)

[philqw78]

I have mine in the yellow

A Ruddockesque uniform perchance?

[Intothevalley]

Nope.

Off the top of my head armies that get elites are:
Mid and Late Republican Romans, triarii or Veteran legions, 6/18
Thematic and Nike Byzantine, Verangian Guard and kataphractoi , 2/10
Mamluk, erm, Mamluks, 16
Later Ottoman, Qapu Khalki, 6
Ancient Brits, naked fanatics, 8
Mongol Invasion and Conquest, Guard cavalry, 4
Gauls, not naked fanatics, soldurii or something like that, 8
Aechemenid Persian, early and late, apple bearers and cavalry, 6
Alec Mac and Seleucids, Lancer cavalry, 4

Think that's it

I think that the T'ang special campaign with Li Shimin are allowed up to 2 elite cavalry