Allied: Berlin West

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uran21
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Allied: Berlin West

Post by uran21 »

Please post here your comments about this scenario.
omegabet
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by omegabet »

Found the way [8,15][9,15][10,16] quite easy to go though. Suggest to place a Pak near by.

Liked counter at [27,27], mines at [30,24] and horses.
Kamerer
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by Kamerer »

14) Berlin West – beta 2

Level: Rommel
Begin pp: 0. End pp: 0*. Net 0.
Result: Loss 27/27, Triumph at 34.

Core Changes:
  • Received: None.
    Disbanded: None.
    Purchased: None.
    Upgraded: None.
    Auxilliary:
    • 1x Bofors aa
      1x crusader aa
      2x aux infantry
    Losses: Lots of infantry, one artillery unit, aux aa units.
Problems:
  • • Allied flags do not count for taking hexes, airfields (greek and NZ).
General Impressions/Comments:
  • • Conceptually, I have no idea how attacking V-sites results in suddenly fighting in Berlin a few weeks later. Maybe some more narrative in the briefing?
    • I felt the map was far too large for the unit limit imposed in AC. Similar problem to Crossing scenario.
    • It seems to have been designed w/o regard to 1.20 gameplay changes, which make it very costly and slow.
    • Prestige cap or award amount makes keeping units even at “10” strength not possible. I added 500 mid-scenario and ended at about 500, for a net of 0.
    • Needs a fair amount of work in a few regards in my opinion.
    • This pertains to the last few scenarios in general, Rhine, Berlin, etc: One of the appeals of fighting “Allied Corps,” in my mind, was having materiel in quantity. The prestige caps, neutralization of artillery, and East-front size maps stuffed with superior opponents doesn’t just feel accurate to the campaign at hand. The massive quality, quantity, strength, and experience advantage the Germans enjoy in the last few scenarios doesn’t feel right or play right in my mind.
deducter
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by deducter »

Kamerer wrote:14) Berlin West – beta 2

Level: Rommel
Begin pp: 0. End pp: 0*. Net 0.
Result: Loss 27/27, Triumph at 34.

Core Changes:
  • Received: None.
    Disbanded: None.
    Purchased: None.
    Upgraded: None.
    Auxilliary:
    • 1x Bofors aa
      1x crusader aa
      2x aux infantry
    Losses: Lots of infantry, one artillery unit, aux aa units.
Problems:
  • • Allied flags do not count for taking hexes, airfields (greek and NZ).
General Impressions/Comments:
  • • Conceptually, I have no idea how attacking V-sites results in suddenly fighting in Berlin a few weeks later. Maybe some more narrative in the briefing?
    • I felt the map was far too large for the unit limit imposed in AC. Similar problem to Crossing scenario.
    • It seems to have been designed w/o regard to 1.20 gameplay changes, which make it very costly and slow.
    • Prestige cap or award amount makes keeping units even at “10” strength not possible. I added 500 mid-scenario and ended at about 500, for a net of 0.
    • Needs a fair amount of work in a few regards in my opinion.
    • This pertains to the last few scenarios in general, Rhine, Berlin, etc: One of the appeals of fighting “Allied Corps,” in my mind, was having materiel in quantity. The prestige caps, neutralization of artillery, and East-front size maps stuffed with superior opponents doesn’t just feel accurate to the campaign at hand. The massive quality, quantity, strength, and experience advantage the Germans enjoy in the last few scenarios doesn’t feel right or play right in my mind.
Although I haven't played this yet, I noticed that you are playing this on a bonus difficulty, Rommel. I don't think it's unreasonable that a bonus difficulty should be brutal, if not impossible (see: Tatsinskaya or Spoils of War on Manstein). However, it does sound like this scenario is probably still quite tough even with normal prestige.

Edit: It does seem like prestige can be adjusted upwards. Also, the current game mechanics does severely punish losing units. But, philosophically, losses are not inherently a bad thing in a game. It is only a bad thing in campaign play because of the disproportionate power of elite, overstrength units compared to green units, and that there are no ways to get the old elite units back. If there were an expanded reform units option that allowed destroy units to be brought back at near the same level of experience, this content would surely be acceptable.
Kamerer
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by Kamerer »

deducter wrote:
Although I haven't played this yet, I noticed that you are playing this on a bonus difficulty, Rommel...

I think if you play the campaign and the scenario, you will be able to see the comments in a more revealing and constructive light.
deducter
Lieutenant Colonel - Fw 190A
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by deducter »

I just finished playing this scenario under Rommel with the preset core for the scenario. The core consists of entirely 14-strength 4-star units, but, I don't get to choose my units and I don't have any heroes. So, this was probably a weaker core than most players would go into this battle with, certainly a weaker core than any experienced players would use.

Edit: I used full RNG, and I did reload once, at the very beginning of a turn when I moved my Superfortress to attack a hex and for some reason I didn't even notice the SE Fw 190 adjacent to the hex I was attacking.

I had no map knowledge, except that surely there were a lot of Germans dug into the Berlin. I played very rushed and not nearly as well as I could have. I made a number of very bad blunders, like falling to a AA-trap, AI-style. Yet, in the end, I think I lost 4-5 units, including the recon plane, and captured all but 3 VH on the map. I think I spent about 3500-4000 prestige mid-scenario, which is high because I kept hitting elite reinforcements until I had only 200 prestige left, and after that I had to capture flags to keep going. But never did I feel the map was close to impossible, compared with, say Berlin in GC45 East using a historical core.

You are absolutely correct that artillery feels a lot weaker! I consider this a massive improvement over the original system of artillery as a wonder weapon in urban warfare. It feels about just right now. Also, consider the following:
1. Strategic bombers are as good as ever, especially in depleting ammo. They don't have any penalty to their suppressive power, and I often found I can nearly fully suppress even an entrench = 8 infantry with the single Superfortress I had. If I were playing in the campaign, I'd field at least 4-5 strategic bombers rather than the 2 I was given.
2. Keep in mind engineers ignore entrenchment. What was a mostly superfluous trait is now quite useful. Still, I recommend 43 engineers to have IN = 3 instead of just 2 to make them much more useful.
3. Keep in mind that artillery is still very effective against low entrenchment units. If you can tempt the AI to abandon its entrenchment, your artillery is often devastating. Also, try to hit with air power first to weaken entrenchment, before attacking with artillery.
4. I was often using my artillery suboptimally, given the new range rules. I should move up my artillery and fire, instead of firing then moving. I completely misused my artillery in this regard.
5. Rocket artillery was still devastating, despite its shorter range. The Sherman Calliope wasn't half-bad against infantry with entrenchment at 4-5, although it did tend to be fairly inefficient at entrenchment 7-8.
6. Take more advantage of other tactical options, like mass attack bonuses. Use those wisely, and losses can be kept lower.
7. I should've used those aux paratroopers to go to the eastern end of the map. That area seemed lightly defended and perfect for a paradrop.

I don't think the artillery system is what needs revision, because it feels quite good, much closer to the well-balanced MP-style artillery.

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to reduce the power of the Germans on this map, however. In particular, the average experience of the German troops should be lower; there should be a mix of 2-3 star units, even some 0-1 star "Volkssturm" type units. The number of infantry could also be slightly reduced.

Attached is a replay of my playthrough.
Attachments
deducter_Berlin_West.zip
(73.38 KiB) Downloaded 195 times
produit
Staff Sergeant - Kavallerie
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by produit »

Finished this huge ultra complex map.
Triumph 27/27, FM, Chess mode, Beta 2, ending prestige 948.

This map is awful, like did say Kamerer, it doesn't seem that you have enough units to cover the map. On the other hand, I had to put in place a lot of nice strategies to be able to go through such a fortress and I enjoyed to be so tight concerning number of turns. I had however to replay some turns because I had lost units and on such a map, you cannot afford to loose a unit as all a required to meet the time goal. I used a para-drop to capture the last VH (34,32), and got the last two VH during the last two turns.

Compared to what Deducter said, I am not sure that my core was better than his, because I still have 1-2 star units in my core, and had only two strat bomber with 4 stars. Moreover, OS of 14 is impossible to meet for my units, excepting artillery and bomber, that don't loose a lot of strength point.

Prestige is pretty tight, but I had enough to be able to win the map. But compared to GC45East of the DLC, this map is a pain. In the DLC, I had better units and sufficient prestige, what is not the case here. I also didn't have to care about counter-attacked, as Tiger II protected by artillery were never attacked. Here, you have to fear enemy tank counter attacks. I barely survived 3-4 times with my tanks. Hopefully, the AI, after nearly destroying one of my firefly, move his Tiger II in a city hex, letting me do destroy it easily with infantry.

On the game-play aspect, I paradroped the reinforcement directly in the south west, to help me lead the attack in the south. Strat bombers (I deployed 4 of them) were heavily used to remove ammo from defending units, allowing me to attack without risk. Calliope tanks are a must have for their movement capabilities, their attack and ability to sustain enemy artillery barrages. Crocodiles are also important to attack defended AA or artillery. I deployed 8 artillery units, but it was perhaps not enough (1 AVRE, 2 Calliope, 3 M12, 1x 76mm and 1x 114mm rocket artillery). I deployed perhaps too many tanks, with 2 Crocodiles, 2 M36 and 5 Firefly.

Some strange tactics can help for prestige. Upgrade units during game. You loose perhaps one turn of movement, but for the same cost as between scenarios, you can have upgrade and reinforce a badly touched units. I know that it is not really logical (upgrading mean no loss of XP, upgrade, full reinforcement and no suppression), but it is important to use all tools. Another tactics (mostly involuntary) was to put a M36 in an the open close to a grenadier. The grenadier will get out of entrenchment and city hex to attack you, letting you to kill it pretty easily.

Finally, I agree with deducter that the quality of German units should be change. 3 stars (in FM) for all units is incoherent. You should find a lot of green units, thrown at you to try to stop you. Moreover, cheating at the beginning of the map reveals me that the enemy has 1 Tiger II, 2 Jagdpanthers, 1 Elephant, 1 Tiger, 5 Panthers, 1 JagdPz IV/70 and 4 Panzer IVH, with a strength of 10 (rarely 9), and exp of 300. Such a huge tank enemy at the last stage of the war is not right for me. You should clear put pricey units with a strength of 4-6, making them annoying but no killing machines.

To conclude, I liked this, but I think that it is perhaps too hard.

PS:
I would really not like to have to battle my core units of GC45 East... I am not sure I would have been able to take only one VH...
Last edited by produit on Fri May 24, 2013 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
ThvN
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by ThvN »

Berlin West

BerlinWestC_victory.pzbrf
"You’re fought in more theaters and won more battles than even Alexander himself."
You’ve fought in more theaters and won more battles than even Alexander the Great himself.

IDS_MESSAGE0
" Aditional airborne units are available to you."
Additional
okiemcguire
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by okiemcguire »

My last Scenario - Berlin West = Beta 3 :cry:

Level: Colonel
Prestige Begin: 3697 End: 319
Results: Victory (LOSS) 27/27 I captured and controlled 8 objectives, including the Reichstag. I had left 6 objectives in enemy hands. I need more time....

Disbanded V1 Rocket for additional 1200pp
Purchased Engineer 43, Crocodile
Upgraded SE Para to SE Ranger

OS all I could

Southern Force: SE Ranger, Ranger, M4A3(76)W, M36 Jackson, Crocodile, M7 Priest, M4A3(106)
Their mission was to first, take control of the airfields and surrounding hexes. Weaken the strength of the units immediately accross the river. With the support of the Paras, cross the river to the south and move toward the Airfields SE of the Reichstag taking as many objectives as possible.

Middle Force: SE Ranger, Engineer 43, HW Inf, 2 Church IV, M36 JAckson, 155 M12 GMC, and BL 7.2inch.
Their mission is to move down the middle of the city taking as many obectives within the corridor as possible. Take the Reichstag and then support the Southern or Northern force as required.

Northern Force: Engineer 43, HW Inf, Ranger, 2 Church IV, Crocodile, 155 M12 GMC.
Their mission to take the northern part of the city clearing the corridore toward the Reichstag.

Air Forces: Hurricane IIC, Tempest V, 2 SE Spitfire IX, 2 Mosquito VI S2, Lancaster III, B-24 Liberator, and B-29 SuperFortress

Now I see I should have stronger Fighters, additional Strategic bomber, and a additional artillery for the Northern force. I also tried to hard to take every flag instead of focusing on the main objectives.

Bad news for me is that the Allied Campaign has come to an end for me. :cry:

The Good news is that I can start all over again.. :D
Attachments
(19.05.2013) Berlin West, Turn 27.zip
(91.54 KiB) Downloaded 204 times
uran21
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by uran21 »

Thanks to all for the feedback so far. From first iteration of this scenario experience of enemy troops was lowered. Armour got reduction to strength, couple of units removed but not significant and some units were changed in unit type. The really good news is addition of more auxiliaries suitable for urban combat. Crocodile, Calliope, AVRE, Xylophone and some other artillery types as well as auxiliary recon plane. Having a core from D-Day was an advantage due to high numbers of infantry in my recent playtest. Also prestige was increased across the board in late war. Effect of reduced artillery is really noticeable but at points I have a feeling rocket artillery still rules. Two Crocodiles supported by Calliope is a killer combination.
RobertCL
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by RobertCL »

Berlin West
Beta 4
Standalone scenario
Leutnant level

Comments:
I am still not convinced by the sound of the Crocodile, the flame (attack) sound is barely audible. Maybe another flame sound, like the one used by British engineers ?

I dropped my paratroopers in the middle of the map, a huge mistake but hopefully I also dropped a part of them to the extreme South East, the perfect place to keep at least one VH.
Germans do not counter attack a lot.
When I buy a new unit I have already 4 stars, is it normal ? I thought in the standard game I had no star at all...
I still do not like maps depicting an inner city, it causes pain to eyes, anyway this is an excellent scenario.
Could you please have a Berlin scenario where the player controls both Western allies and Soviets (like the original PG) ? I think this kind of scenario would have been welcome in this package (in case the Allies come to the Elbe too late for instance, the the conquest of Berlin comes later and the SOviets have already advanced towards the city)

I loved the recon Lysander planes.

Great scenario anyway, I won at turn nr 20.
billmv44
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by billmv44 »

Beta 4. General. Starting prestige 8973, ending 622. Triumph 26/27.

More grinding urban combat. Berlin is huge so it takes quite a while to work through the map. The German units are very tough and require lots of softening up before they can be eliminated. I dropped my para units south of 4,27. I was able to clean out that area with them along with minor armor and arty support from across the Havel river. No big surprises here, except some very skillfully placed minefields. I think the balance is about right for this scenario.
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monkspider
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by monkspider »

Berlin West
Beta 4
General level
Ending Prestige 3500
Marginal victory 27/27

This was a very long and epic slog, reminiscent of Storming Stalingrad. I took a very cautious approach, but still my losses were moderately high. There was only one objective that I failed to get, which I am sure I could have taken with better planning. I do like this scenario though, I like the numerous auxillary units and the varied strategies that are open to you.

I do have one recommendation though, I would like to see more flavor objectives. We really need a "High Command Bunk"objective at least. A Berlin Zoo objective would be appropriate too, considering the FLAK tower was one of the central command posts. Also, it would be nice if the unit guarding the Reichstag was a special, overstrength, named unit like the "Red Guard" unit guarding the Kremlin. Good scenario but it really needs more flavor! Hopefully it is not to late to add a couple little things like that.
Attachments
Berlin West beta 4 monkspider.zip
(80.49 KiB) Downloaded 155 times
Razz1
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by Razz1 »

Berlin West
Beta 4
General
start 12575
end

There is a SE FW190a which is in African camouflage. It looks weird on this map.
Razz1
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Re: Allied: Berlin West

Post by Razz1 »

Kamerer wrote:14) Berlin West – beta 2



Problems:

• Needs a fair amount of work in a few regards in my opinion.
• This pertains to the last few scenarios in general, Rhine, Berlin, etc: One of the appeals of fighting “Allied Corps,” in my mind, was having materiel in quantity. The prestige caps, neutralization of artillery, and East-front size maps stuffed with superior opponents doesn't just feel accurate to the campaign at hand. The massive quality, quantity, strength, and experience advantage the Germans enjoy in the last few scenarios doesn't feel right or play right in my mind.

I'm glad you mention this as I have been wanting post my opinion on this.

I feel all the scenarios should have the German units at full strength or increased from the current level. Then have another German unit show up a few turns later. To compensate for this, add a couple of auxiliary units on each map. We should use auxiliary units to support our core through the campaign, not have our core units get shot to hell each map and be forced to replace them with elite strength.

Why? The game doesn't feel right. When you see a German unit it should not be strength 5. It should be 10 with enough experience that it will make you afraid.
The player should actually have more units and be forced to use mass attack in order to defeat several of the German units. In Allied Corps we should use quantity and strategy. But instead, we have low strength unit where you can do battle one on one. It just feels wrong as the Allies could never do one on one since the Germans had superior equipment.
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