_[BUG] v1.8.12.818 bRC6u03 - refuse to charge

[TheGrayMouser]

I had a sword only medium foot in disordering terrain, it refused to charge a fragged enemy unit.

Only fragged shock troops, disrupted non shock troops, and any formed BG with a missle weapon as primary(unless attacking a fragged/rear enemy) should test to refuse to charge.

I suspect the current build is treating disorder (from terrain) the same as "disrupted" (the morale state) for refusal to charge

[cothyso]

Please also post console log's related section for gameplay bugs.

And yes, this is precisely what's happening. And straight from the manual:

Disrupted (pg 41/56) "Needs to pass a complex move test to charge any enemy."
Disordered (pg 41/56) "Needs to pass a complex move test to charge any enemy."

// GAMEPLAY RULE - [Combat][Charge][CMT]: non-shock-able disrupted or disordered BGs must pass a CMT to charge any enemy BG

And you're in the wrong with the rest of your little "must take a CMT for refuse to charge" list too:
// GAMEPLAY RULE - [Combat][Charge]: fragmented BGs can not charge any enemy BG
// GAMEPLAY RULE - [Combat][Charge][CMT]: light foot must pass a CMT to charge any enemy BG other than light foot
// GAMEPLAY RULE - [Combat][Charge][CMT]: light horse must pass a CMT to charge any enemy BG other than skirmishers
// GAMEPLAY RULE - [Combat][Charge][CMT]: non-shock medium foot whose front rank has missile weapons (unless javelins or bow*) must pass a CMT to charge unbroken non-skirmishers they could otherwise shoot at

[TheGrayMouser]

A) You are quoting from the manual?
The manual is full of errors and inconsistancies

If you read the PC manual, under impact there is a section for testing to charge and IT states DISRUPTED must test , never mentions DISORDERED

So right there we have two rules quoted by the manual… Which is right ??

B) Logic
Why would any unit in disordering terrain need to test to charge( remember we are testing to charge , not testing NOT to anarchy)

So Later Roman legions (superior LSpear) need to test to charge if they happen to be in the forrest?

Also , what about VERY Disordered. By this logic those troops should NEVER be able to charge until they clear that terrain type, which means if you have a ditch you can deploy troops one hex behind the ditch and NO enemy cavalry or heavy infantry can impact them…

Medium troops are generally placed in disordering terrain. It makes no sence that they have to TEST to attack , shock or no shock
So , a sword and buckler unit has to test to be able to attack a fragged pike unit in a swamp just because the sword unit is also in a swamp?

C) the TT rules have NO provision for testing to charge if disordered…

D) does FOG VB have this rule in place? If it does I’ll eat crow, but after all the games ive played I don’t ever recall disordered troops needing to pass anarchy tests to charge UNLESS they were simultanously DISRUPTED or mediums armed with BOW etc

[cothyso]

No need to get mad about this

A) You are quoting from the manual?

Yes, I am quoting from the manual, as it's used together with the wiki for implementing the rules, as there's no documentation at all for the FoG(RB), excepting the manual, wiki and TT rules.

The manual is full of errors and inconsistancies

And yes, manual is full of errors and inconsistencies. That's why we're talking about this, and if manual is wrong, then we must find out the errors, and correct them.

B) Logic
Why would any unit in disordering terrain need to test to charge( remember we are testing to charge , not testing NOT to anarchy)

Because disrupted and disordered are representing (theoretically at least) the same effect on a unit (only the cause of it being different, one due to terrain and the other due to combat).

So Later Roman legions (superior LSpear) need to test to charge if they happen to be in the forrest?

According to the rules, yes. Hardly my fault they are not considered shock troops.

Also , what about VERY Disordered. By this logic those troops should NEVER be able to charge until they clear that terrain type, which means if you have a ditch you can deploy troops one hex behind the ditch and NO enemy cavalry or heavy infantry can impact them…

Yes, that's the case. Except the last part, as the rules says that the charge test is done using the current unit's terrain, not the impact hex'es one.

Medium troops are generally placed in disordering terrain. It makes no sence that they have to TEST to attack , shock or no shock
So , a sword and buckler unit has to test to be able to attack a fragged pike unit in a swamp just because the sword unit is also in a swamp?

Well, there's one thing trying to effectively charge from a swamp holding an one-two foot sword, and another when holding a 15-27 feet pike.. Again, these are the rules.

C) the TT rules have NO provision for testing to charge if disordered…

We have Richard and Chris, which are masters of the TT rules, so they must know them the best.

D) does FOG VB have this rule in place? If it does I’ll eat crow, but after all the games ive played I don’t ever recall disordered troops needing to pass anarchy tests to charge UNLESS they were simultanously DISRUPTED or mediums armed with BOW etc

Memory can play tricks on us, a and we can't test everything on FoG(RB) to see if was working so, or not. Usually, when there's something not so very clear, I'm talking with Richard and Chris, and getting their input regarding how it should be to be as close to TT as possible.

And as far as I can remember, I remember we've discussed about this, and they've said disrupted and disordered are representing the same effect. Even more, in many of the places they are specified together and used together in tests, and in many places in which there's no clear mention of them, they are still used and tested both.

Nevertheless, I'll point them both to this thread and say how it should really be.

[cothyso]

I've got confirmation that you were right and that indeed only the non-shock able and disrupted (not disordered or Disordered) BGs must pass a CMT to be able to charge, so..

modified for revision 820

// - changed GP.TestCT() <<// GAMEPLAY RULE - [Combat][Charge][CMT]: non-shock-able disrupted or disordered BGs must pass a CMT to charge any enemy BG>> into <<// GAMEPLAY RULE - [Combat][Charge][CMT]: non-shock-able disrupted BGs must pass a CMT to charge any enemy BG>> rule


I've also checked the <<// GAMEPLAY RULE - [Combat][Charge]: [non-shock-able] fragmented [or severely disordered] BGs can not charge any enemy BG>> which was corrected a while ago, and it is OK (so severely disordered and Severely Disordered BG's terrain cohesion states are not falling under this rule).

I'm also waiting for getting confirmation for all the other disordered/Disordered/severely disordered/Severely Disordered terrain cohesion usages through the rules.