Russian weather

[JyriErik]

I tried searching, but wasn't able to find anything, so I hope I'm not repeating something that was elsewhere.

While the Russian winter's effects are shown, there was another weather effect that seemingly isn't shown in the game. From everything I've read about the eastern front in WW II, there were two times a year when both sides operations essentially stopped completely due to the weather. The fall rains and the spring thaws (aka Rasputitsa). Movement of major formations was almost impossible except along paved roads and the railroads and it had major effects on both sides operations, especially on the side winning at the time. It stalled the German offensvie against Moscow for a month, probably saving the city. It stopped the Russian winter counterattack that followed, giving the Germans time to rebuild for the 42 summer offensive. While it didn't have a major effect in the fall of 42 giving boths sides some time to rest & refit, in the spring of 43 it did stop Manstein's "Backhand Blow" short of its final goals, setting up the battle of Kursk, and gave the Germans some breathing room in the fall of 43 & spring of 44.

Is there any reason this can't be programmed into the game?

Jyri

[firepowerjohan]

We have movement penalty and effectiveness drop during the USSR winter already simulating mud and snow.

[Evans]

We have movement penalty and effectiveness drop during the USSR winter already simulating mud and snow.

I think his point is rather that the Rasputitsa sets in in the autumn and the spring - the frozen ground in the winter was a lot easier to move over than the torrid mud of of those seasons. For example in Operation Typhoon movement in the frozen snow of winter was a lot more fluid than it was in the rains of autumn.

[borsook79]

Well, the beginning of winter indeed seemed better for movement than mud, but later on when the temperature dropped it did hinder movement since it was hard to keep the fuel from freezing.

That said the weather is not simulated properly in CEAW, esp its effects on Air units.

[JyriErik]

We have movement penalty and effectiveness drop during the USSR winter already simulating mud and snow.

I think his point is rather that the Rasputitsa sets in in the autumn and the spring - the frozen ground in the winter was a lot easier to move over than the torrid mud of of those seasons. For example in Operation Typhoon movement in the frozen snow of winter was a lot more fluid than it was in the rains of autumn.

Precisely. The weather effects might be okay for winter, but for the spring and rain mud they're way too generous. The accounts I've read of say that both sides pretty much stayed put during the rainy/thaw season. At the scale of the game being allowed to move one hex per turn during the muddy season would be reasonable, two might be generous, three impossible. There just weren't that many paved roads in Russia at the time. Even today it's a problem. I think it was last spring when the Moscow/Gorki "highway" shut down due to it becoming mud that was several feet deep.

Jyri

[Happycat]

The weather is not realistically modelled, which leads to things like Case Yellow in January of 1940 being no problem at all. Yet, overall this works quite well, thanks to the time scale of the game versus the nature of the combat system. In practical terms, most games I have played have seen the invasion of the Low Countries and France commence in January and end in May or June. Thus, a "realistic" result is obtained.

In any event, it seems to work. If we had "mud" turns in CEAW, I think you would see Case Yellow extending well into the last quarter of 1940, which in turn would jeopardize a timely start of Barbarossa.

So it may not be realistic, but you know what? It works

[borsook79]

The weather is not realistically modelled, which leads to things like Case Yellow in January of 1940 being no problem at all. Yet, overall this works quite well, thanks to the time scale of the game versus the nature of the combat system. In practical terms, most games I have played have seen the invasion of the Low Countries and France commence in January and end in May or June. Thus, a "realistic" result is obtained.

In any event, it seems to work. If we had "mud" turns in CEAW, I think you would see Case Yellow extending well into the last quarter of 1940, which in turn would jeopardize a timely start of Barbarossa.

So it may not be realistic, but you know what? It works

Well, I'd rather have more realism and different turn length. Esp as currently finishing Polish campaign at a historical date is rather close to impossible.

[Happycat]

[Well, I'd rather have more realism and different turn length. Esp as currently finishing Polish campaign at a historical date is rather close to impossible.

I play a mod exclusively now, but one of the things we did in the mod is TOUGHEN the Polish defense. In the "vanilla" version, eliminating the Poles in two turns became quite routine. Even with our tougher mod, two to three turns is the norm. You have to be prepared to take a lot of damage as the Germans, but it's definitely do-able

[borsook79]

[Well, I'd rather have more realism and different turn length. Esp as currently finishing Polish campaign at a historical date is rather close to impossible.

I play a mod exclusively now, but one of the things we did in the mod is TOUGHEN the Polish defense. In the "vanilla" version, eliminating the Poles in two turns became quite routine. Even with our tougher mod, two to three turns is the norm. You have to be prepared to take a lot of damage as the Germans, but it's definitely do-able

No, doing it in 2 turns is still slower than it really was. It's not about skill but turn length. With 20 days turns you'd have to do it in 1 turn. And I don't think it's possible...

[Happycat]

[quote="BorsookNo, doing it in 2 turns is still slower than it really was. It's not about skill but turn length. With 20 days turns you'd have to do it in 1 turn. And I don't think it's possible...[/quote]

At the risk of being pedantic, 2 turns is right on the money. Poland surrendered around October 5th or 6th after a big battle (near Lublin, I think).

The Poles possibly could have lasted longer, but of course they were stabbed in the back by the USSR, and at the same time the British and French did nothing to help them (well, I think the RAF might have dropped some leaflets on Berlin or something )

Anyway, if you do it in two turns, that brings you up to around Oct 10th in game time, which I guess is not too far from the historical date.

It would be interesting to try modding the turn length, but a lot of other factors would have to be changed too (production time being the primary one I suppose). I certainly would agree that if you miss your objective by one or two turns, it really screws things up for you with twenty day turns.

The one that really ticks me off is when Belgrade holds out longer than it should---that can really put you behind for the start of Barbarossa. Although, I have seen my worthy opponenty Stauffenberg start Barbarossa in July, and still achieve his intended 1941 stop line before winter sets in.

[firepowerjohan]

Some players start transferring German units west even before Poland has fallen just so that a late fall of Warsaw does not delay you a whole turn
Once you reach Warsaw and get it partly surrounded it is often just a matter of time before they fall anyway.

[Happycat]

Some players start transferring German units west even before Poland has fallen just so that a late fall of Warsaw does not delay you a whole turn
Once you reach Warsaw and get it partly surrounded it is often just a matter of time before they fall anyway.

Precisely! After the first turn, you don't need all of the German units in Poland (although I think you need all of the air).

[borsook79]

At the risk of being pedantic, 2 turns is right on the money. Poland surrendered around October 5th or 6th after a big battle (near Lublin, I think).

Anyway, if you do it in two turns, that brings you up to around Oct 10th in game time, which I guess is not too far from the historical date.

Yes, so 4 days later. To be honest this is the first game when it's impossible to achieve a better than historical result. For me this shows that turn length/unit speeds are badly chosen.

[Happycat]

At the risk of being pedantic, 2 turns is right on the money. Poland surrendered around October 5th or 6th after a big battle (near Lublin, I think).

Anyway, if you do it in two turns, that brings you up to around Oct 10th in game time, which I guess is not too far from the historical date.

Yes, so 4 days later. To be honest this is the first game when it's impossible to achieve a better than historical result. For me this shows that turn length/unit speeds are badly chosen.

I think what you say is probably correct for the first couple of years of the game, but when playing a human opponent, I rarely see a "historical" result. The "right" side might win (or not) but it's always earlier than expected, don't you think?

[borsook79]

At the risk of being pedantic, 2 turns is right on the money. Poland surrendered around October 5th or 6th after a big battle (near Lublin, I think).

Anyway, if you do it in two turns, that brings you up to around Oct 10th in game time, which I guess is not too far from the historical date.

Yes, so 4 days later. To be honest this is the first game when it's impossible to achieve a better than historical result. For me this shows that turn length/unit speeds are badly chosen.

I think what you say is probably correct for the first couple of years of the game, but when playing a human opponent, I rarely see a "historical" result. The "right" side might win (or not) but it's always earlier than expected, don't you think?

Yes, of course. Still I think it should be at least possible to achieve such a result. Trouble is just can't happen (and for me in e.g. HOI trying to beat historical dates was always fun).

[Peter Stauffenberg]

[quote="Happycat]The one that really ticks me off is when Belgrade holds out longer than it should---that can really put you behind for the start of Barbarossa. Although, I have seen my worthy opponenty Stauffenberg start Barbarossa in July, and still achieve his intended 1941 stop line before winter sets in.[/quote]

Remember that in the real war the Germans only attacked Yugoslavia as late as April 1941 with lots of units and also attacked Greece. In CeaW it's common to attack Yugoslavia in the Fall of 1940 with less units. So it's only natural that the Yugoslavians last a few turns. Some impatient Axis players don't wait until Hungary and/or Romania join the Axis. It's a lot of slow rough terrain from the Austrian / Italian border to Belgrade. Our mod has changed the terrain movement cost for vehicles (motorized and armor) from 0 to 1 in rough and forest terrain.

If you attack from Romania it's possible to take Belgrade after 2 turns with some air support. If you also use some armor units you may take Belgrade after just 1 turn. Attacking from Hungary, but not Romania, then it's usual to take Belgrade after 3 turns. Attacking from Austria means you need 4 turns or more. I don't think that's so ahistorical. Also remember that Yugoslavia a bit stronger in our mod than in the vanilla game. This was done to prevent players from blitzing the entire Balkans in the Fall of 1940 (including Greece) and then attack Turkey as soon as Bulgaria joins the Axis. Then it's possible to delay the attack of Russian to the Germans get to the Russian southern border and attack towards Baku in maybe October 1941.