Arc or fire and range

[titanu]

In the game this evening I had a unit of bows that were within 4mu's of a cavalry unit but out of 1 base sideways arc. So I thought that as I was NOT in effective range then I could fire one base 2 widths sideways. My opponent different and said I was in effective range i.e. 4mus. What do the team think?

If you say effective range is 4mus so I cannot fire would this still apply if the enemy were behind me - also in 4mus but out of arc?

[dave_r]

Well, here's my opinion

Pg 87 11-2. Range. "A front rank base is in range if a front corner or any part of its front edge is within range of the target"

Pg 88 11-3. Arc of Fire "Subject to target priority - 2 base widths if no base of the shooting battle group is in effective range of that enemy battle group"

Therefore the battle group is in effective range (although not within arc of fire) if any part of the front edge or front corner is within their range. And so even if not able to shoot at that battle group it can only fire one base width to either side even if the only battlegroup it can shoot at is over effective range.

[dave_r]

The question being asked is do you get two bases arc of fire if you cant shoot at anybody within 4 even if there is enemy within 4 who cant be shot at.

[philqw78]

Why are you talking about enmy that is not a target Dave? Its very confusing.

[dave_r]

OK - here is a diagram



The BG in the middle comprising bases C through H is facing up and is shooting. Battlegroups A and B are enemy battlegroups. Battlegroup B is within 4" of the front of the shooting BG but Battlegroup C is outside of 4".

As per the rules as written (I believe) only bases C, D, F and G could fire as they only have one base width arc of fire as enemy battlegroup C (at which they can't fire) is within 4".

[batesmotel]

Dave's diagram looks wrong to me.

Well, here's my opinion

Pg 87 11-2. Range. "A front rank base is in range if a front corner or any part of its front edge is within range of the target"

Pg 88 11-3. Arc of Fire Subject to target priority - 2 base widths if no base of the shooting battle group is in effective range of that enemy battle group"

Therefore the battle group is in effective range (although not within arc of fire) if any part of the front edge or front corner is within their range. And so even if not able to shoot at that battle group it can only fire one base width to either side even if the only battlegroup it can shoot at is over effective range.

It is whether any of the target BG is within effective range of the shooting BG, not whether any enemy BG is within effective range which prevents using the two base width arc.

Chris

[rbodleyscott]

OK - here is a diagram



The BG in the middle comprising bases C through H is facing up and is shooting. Battlegroups A and B are enemy battlegroups. Battlegroup B is within 4" of the front of the shooting BG but Battlegroup C is outside of 4".

As per the rules as written (I believe) only bases C, D, F and G could fire as they only have one base width arc of fire as enemy battlegroup C (at which they can't fire) is within 4".

Assuming that your text should read: "As per the rules as written (I believe) only bases C, D, F and G could fire as they only have one base width arc of fire as enemy battlegroup B (at which they can't fire) is within 4""

Dave, you are stark raving mad. But we knew that already.

Sorry I failed to understand the question before, but it was so insane that my mind could not encompass it.

"It's life, Jim, but not as we know it."

Apologies to you Bob, I thought you meant something different. I thought you meant could you shoot at a BG that is within 4" and outside 1 base arc of fire if there is nothing that is in arc of fire.

And Dave, if you actually read the rules: It says - "
A base can shoot at an enemy base that is not directly ahead, provided that some part of the enemy base is inside a straight line projecting forward parallel to, and at the following distance from, the shooting base's side edge:
- 2 base widths if no base of the shooting battle group is in effective range of that enemy battle group.
- 1 base width otherwise."

[dave_r]

Apologies to you Bob, I thought you meant something different. I thought you meant could you shoot at a BG that is within 4" and outside 1 base arc of fire if there is nothing that is in arc of fire.

That was the actual situation last night, but the diagram above was easier to draw.

[petedalby]

So the enemy BG is within 4 MU of your shooters, but more than 1 base width to the side? If so I believe it is out of arc.

[dave_r]

So the enemy BG is within 4 MU of your shooters, but more than 1 base width to the side? If so I believe it is out of arc.

Yes that was exactly the case.

[rbodleyscott]

So the enemy BG is within 4 MU of your shooters, but more than 1 base width to the side? If so I believe it is out of arc.

Yes that was exactly the case.

Well that was the question I originally answered - as per Pete's answer - you can't shoot at them.

Until the b*ll*cks about a BG to the rear was raised.

[petedalby]

Until the b*ll*cks about a BG to the rear was raised.

Yes - I'm struggling to understand how this would change anything?

Is V2 really this difficult? Should I stick with FoGR?

[zoltan]

So the enemy BG is within 4 MU of your shooters, but more than 1 base width to the side? If so I believe it is out of arc.

Yes that was exactly the case.

Well that was the question I originally answered - as per Pete's answer - you can't shoot at them.

So ignoring all the noise and going back to the original post, Titanu's opponent was right. If you are within 4 MUs of the enemy, but the enemy is more than 1 base width to the side, you can not shoot. To shoot, the target must be both within range and within arc. The arc for targets at effective range is only 1 base width to the side.

[rbodleyscott]

So ignoring all the noise and going back to the original post, Titanu's opponent was right. If you are within 4 MUs of the enemy, but the enemy is more than 1 base width to the side, you can not shoot. To shoot, the target must be both within range and within arc. The arc for targets at effective range is only 1 base width to the side.

Which, strangely enough, is what it says in the rules.

[titanu]

In the picture above the clown face beer mats are the shooting unit. The lottery tickect shows one base width to the side. The packet of coloured pens is the target and the blue biro is the 4mu stick.

So the target is in 4mus but it is out of arc. So is it in effective range?

If your answer is Yes then far enough.



In this shot the target (the pens) are outside 4 mus but within 6 mus so we can shoot 2 bases sideways. But the cold remedy box is also enemy and they are within 4mus but behind the shooters BUT within 4mus. So again is it in effective range? Can the shooters shoot at the pens?

The pens ARE within 2 base widths sideways.

[Sarmaticus]

"A base can shoot at an enemy base that is not directly ahead, provided that some part of the enemy base is inside a straight line projecting forward parallel to, and at the following distance from, the shooting base's side edge:
- 2 base widths if no base of the shooting battle group is in effective range of that enemy battle group.
- 1 base width otherwise."
Surely, in this case, _that_ battlegroup is the one at which the Clown Face unit is trying to shoot: the Pack of Pens. It is not trying to shoot at the Cold Remedies; so the Cold Remedies are irrelevent. The rule is a simple way of working out arcs of shooting between the shooters and their selected _target_.

[Sarmaticus]

In the picture above the clown face beer mats are the shooting unit. The lottery tickect shows one base width to the side. The packet of coloured pens is the target and the blue biro is the 4mu stick.

Is your point that because the Pack of Pens are out of arc, they are not within effective range, so they are within arc?

[titanu]

In the picture above the clown face beer mats are the shooting unit. The lottery tickect shows one base width to the side. The packet of coloured pens is the target and the blue biro is the 4mu stick.

Is your point that because the Pack of Pens are out of arc, they are not within effective range, so they are within arc?

You have it exactly!!!!

[Sarmaticus]

In the picture above the clown face beer mats are the shooting unit. The lottery tickect shows one base width to the side. The packet of coloured pens is the target and the blue biro is the 4mu stick.

Is your point that because the Pack of Pens are out of arc, they are not within effective range, so they are within arc?

You have it exactly!!!!

I only have V1 but there it says that range to the target is from the shooters front corner or edge: in this case that distance measures as less than 4MUs: that's effective range. To be shot at, the target must be within a line drawn parallel to the shooter's side-edge that varies with the range to that target: in this case, the target is not beyond effective range (4MUs), so the arc of "fire" is 1 base width. The Pack of Pens is more than one base width to the side, so the target can't be shot at. In range and eligible to be shot at are not the same thing in the rules (or in real life).

[kevinj]

Thank you for using Clowns, they are highly appropriate to this discussion. Let's call them C1, C2 and C3 from left to right.

In order to be a target, the enemy BG must be within both range and arc. If it is not not. Neither the pens nor the cold remedy are in both, so neither count as targets.

More relevant are the Cream and Black coloured items (which I will assume are also Bob's enemies) to the front of C3
So, from right to left:
The Cream is directly to front of C3 and within Effective range (clearly less than 1 Biro length) so C3 shoots at that.
The Cream is also within 1 base width of C2 and is closer than the Black. As neither are directly to the front of C2 and within Effective range, it also shoots the Cream.
C1 as previously established cannot shoot the Pens. Even if it is not within effective range of the Cream, it cannot claim the 2 base width arc because other bases of the same BG are shooting the same target at Effective range. Its only possible target is Black which is within 2 base widths and not within effective range. If it is within long range (not definitely ascertainable from the photo) C1 can only shoot at Black.