Light AA with Ground Attack Ability / Extended Defense Range

[matterhorn]

There were some thoughts about it here:

viewtopic.php?f=121&t=33368&p=384267&hi ... .8#p384267

For example:

I like what some have said, be nice if AA units could fire on ground targets. That is one big draw back on them. My tracked AA when I have them, do tend to be pushed to the front with artillery behind, in the hopes some infantry will attack them so they get to fire lol The auto range defensive fire against Air targets would be a nice feature too, with reduced effective as the range goes out.

There are various ways to make AA units more useful, although this does not mean they will become more useful than fighters - these are units with very different roles. For example, AA units could cover ground units from attacks within their range, not just in 1-hex radius.

I like this idea. Perhaps the effectiveness of the defensive fire might decline with distance, out to the far end of the unit's range. For example, an 88 (range of 3) would provide defensive fire at 100% of its strength at 0-1 hexes, 2/3 at 2 hexes, 1/3 at 3 hexes. Otherwise I fear the battleground might become a very hostile place for our beloved air units--for keep in mind that this rule would apply to the enemy as well!

And yes: I like the idea of improving AA units too.
Actually it's by far the biggest wish I would like to have been realized.


A) Ground Attack Ability for light AA Units
===============================

As the 8.8cm has a unique role AND the stats change when you switch - which is ok in this case - I wouldn't touch that.

The first point is about 2cm/3.7cm only.

I've been having a tendency of building up power cores so far (Tigers, Panthers, Me 262, ...). But I restarted to play with a more historical core composition because playing with the power core has become easy and lacks of variety.
This more historical core composition has to include light AA units. So I would like to have them more effective in a realistic way.
In fact light AA units were used extensively on the german side for attacking ground targets and the allies did this too.

What I wouldn't do is changing the stats (like the 8.8cm does when switched).
I've made some test shooting (response fire when attacked) with all light AA units (nice to have those cheat codes for this ).
I did this in following scenarios: Bagration / Lake Balaton / France. The experience for the light AA units was 0, 300 and 500.They had to defend alone and backed up by artillery.
They were attacked with tanks, ATs, recon and infantry with and without supressive artillery fire.
I think the stats are absolutely ok. All that would have to be done, would be "removing the brackets" at the SA and HA values. No switching.
This would give an unit the ability to attack a ground unit in the own turn and defend other units from aerial attacks in the following enemy turn.
Having tested the power and vulnerability of light AA units I think they still would not be overpowered in any way (even with these advantages I wouldn't buy them when building a power core...).
Fighters already are able to attack air or ground targets in your own turn AND defend neighboring level bombers in the following enemy turn (no change of stats, no switching). Why not giving some similiar ability to light AA units.

B) Extended Defense Range
=====================

This would effect every AA unit, light and heavy.
As already stated, there should be some drawback: not with full power.
Light AA units which have a range of 2 could defend an attacked ground unit which is 2 hexes away with 1/2 of their strength.
Heavy AA units which have a range of 3 could defend an attacked ground unit which is 2 hexes away with 2/3 and a unit 3 hexes away with 1/3 of their strength.

Your heavy AA units can't defend anyway when mounted, so in some scenarios where you have to move fast they must be defended themselves from air attacks.

What I'm trying to say is: I thought about the two changes a while and I don't think they would have the potential for breaking the balance.

I think this would make AA units in general and light ones in particular better balanced and more realistic units.


There may be one "disadvantage": as robman said 'for keep in mind that this rule would apply to the enemy as well!'.
But still I think the two changes would be fair and realistic.

[veranschi13]

Like your ideas. How far are they from being realized?

[Messmann]

Your thoughts are interesting...

I created an equipment file for a new mod. Among other things, each aa unit can be... switched, to antitank or ground combat mode. Numbers have been finished. I will publish this in the next few weeks.

I haven't come to the conclusion to drop switching altogether. In some way you are right: it's simple to change, and aa units won't be overlooked so often again. However, I am not totally concinced...

I think if I drop switching it would make those aa units stronger and/or cheaper than some antitank and infantry units. Especially in the early years you'll find that some antitank units would become obsolete.

Instead, I decided to give light aa units minimum movement movement points. Each can move 2 hexes at minimum. (Except the 8.8.)

[Razz1]

AA units were not used as offensive weapons. The 8.8 was used as defensive role and that was an exception.

They are way over powered in switch mode. They devastate infantry units.

Very non-historical. A fantasy general.

[airbornemongo101]

SP gun ADA has always been used offensively ,if given the right oppurtunity, by every nation that has possesed them since it's inception.

Towed gun ADA has not been used offensesively to any great extent due to the simple excersise of having to unlimber the carriage from it's tow veh and setting up for action.

However ,towed gun ADA was used defensively with devastating results thru out the later half of the 20th century (IE: Caen-almost an entire battalion of Canadian Infantry was wiped out by a couple of quad 20mm's. There are numerous other examples--that was just one of many).

I think removing the brackets on the fixed models would not be historical,but removing the brackets on SP models would reflect the accurately reflect the flexibility of these units.

The only question is how it would affect gameplay (imbalance) and the fact that all SP ADA were a part of a larger unit ( a platoon or company of SP guns were assigned to each batt.) that also included towed models (German.Soviet and American) and that the PZC game is scaled to batt. and rgt. scale.

The scale of the game is operational (5-10 klicks) and not tactical ,so I think that the range issue is not practical (most gun ADA even today only has a range of anywhere from 2200 to 4900 meters)

[ThvN]

Thanks for the good explanation, Mr. Mongo, and you raise some very good questions. I've been toying with switchable AA units for a while now, and I've come across some of the same problems that you mention. To add something about the historical use, as far as I know, the only type of offensive use of heavy caliber towed AAA was as artillery in an indirect fire role, such as the US 90mm or the German 88mm. I have an article about the use of the US 90mm AA gun as offensive artillery in Italy, no mention of offensive direct-fire use.

On the other hand, like you say, the offensive use of SPAAG (self-propelled anti-aircraft gun) is relatively common it seems. See for example this English translation of WW2 German application of 20mm SPAAG in offensive ground role: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/use20mm/index.html

I've been experimenting with switchable AA units in PzC, and I'm not satisfied (yet) with the results. A 20mm Flakvierling mounted on a halftrack (SdKfz 7) becomes available relatively early, and if I make it switchable it's just a little too good for my taste, the same problem as with the 88mm as Razz1 mentions, but now with 5 move + fire, so it's even worse, like a specialized soft-attack tank or something. And later in the war the Pz IV chassis with the Flakvierling or 37mm is also quite powerful.

For now, I've slightly reduced some ground attack values, and it's somewhat better, but I'm not convinced yet. One problem is that the player generally knows when it's safe to switch to ground-attack mode, but the AI is not that capable; it will eagerly switch & attack with it's AA guns, which undermines the gameplay a little too much sometimes.

I'm contemplating now to make the self-propelled units switch into an artillery unit with range 1. This way they will be very helpful in suppressing units, but not be able to make many kills. I hope this will reinforce their role of support weapons. And it might prevent the AI in attacking with them too often, but all this will have to be tested first of course.

[airbornemongo101]

As always ,Sir ThvN, you give good examples and raise very good and valid points.

I know what you mean about the 20mm (and I share your concerns)..but then again, in real life those things were absolutely devastating.

I like the whole switch/suppresion idea ,it would limit the impact on game balance,but yet allow SP ADA a limited offensive capablity.

If you run any tests please let me know how they turn out

[matterhorn]

Like your ideas. How far are they from being realized?

Thanks. I don't know if they will be realized. I think it depends on how the other players like the idea and what the devs say.

AA units were not used as offensive weapons. The 8.8 was used as defensive role and that was an exception.

They are way over powered in switch mode. They devastate infantry units.

Very non-historical. A fantasy general.

There is an article in a magazine for military history this month confirming what I've read different times before: the 8.8cm was often used as an offensive weapon. This resulted in heavy losses over the years because of the vulnerability this weapon system has.

I've read several reports from eye-witnesses where is stated that the self-propelled 2cm Flak was used as an offensive weapon too.

Both, the 8.8cm and 2cm were often used direct firing on ground targets - the 8.8cm especially for tanks - according to many reports.

In russia - especially in the later years - the germans were in a chronic shortage of heavy weapons. And from what I've read it was like they used everything they could crap when they were given orders to attack.

...
I've been experimenting with switchable AA units in PzC, and I'm not satisfied (yet) with the results. A 20mm Flakvierling mounted on a halftrack (SdKfz 7) becomes available relatively early, and if I make it switchable it's just a little too good for my taste, the same problem as with the 88mm as Razz1 mentions, but now with 5 move + fire, so it's even worse, like a specialized soft-attack tank or something. And later in the war the Pz IV chassis with the Flakvierling or 37mm is also quite powerful.

For now, I've slightly reduced some ground attack values, and it's somewhat better, but I'm not convinced yet. One problem is that the player generally knows when it's safe to switch to ground-attack mode, but the AI is not that capable; it will eagerly switch & attack with it's AA guns, which undermines the gameplay a little too much sometimes.

I'm contemplating now to make the self-propelled units switch into an artillery unit with range 1. This way they will be very helpful in suppressing units, but not be able to make many kills. I hope this will reinforce their role of support weapons. And it might prevent the AI in attacking with them too often, but all this will have to be tested first of course.

OK, indeed the 8.8cm was a devasting weapon as the 2cm was against infantry. But I don't think a SdKfz 7 can be considerd a somewhat specialized soft-attack tank (like the Flammpanzer).
In my test-shooting, playing hotseat in the France scenario, the SdKfz 7 was very vulnerable even against Hotchkiss H35.
In the Bagration scenario the rather weak T34/85 (weak in comparison to the other tanks/ATs the AI deployed like IS 2, SU 100, SU 152) just butchered every available SP AA-unit (even the Ostwind when using 'all eqp'), although I gave them an experience of 500.

The SP AA-units have a rather low initiative value and when I remember right (I can't check it right in this moment) close defense is always 0 (for every SP AA-unit).
They have a rather high vulnerability even against weak contemporary enemy tanks. And there are mediocre and strong enemy tanks too.

In the France test-shooting the SdKfz 7 was quite vulnerable against artillery fire too (one time I killed the half unit - 5 strength - with one shot of a 152mm while the odds were 2 kills). OK this gets better with the Pz IV-Chassis. But you get this Pz IV-Chassis quite late.


What you say about the AI-gameplay:
If the AI does act in such a way, that could indeed be a problem.

So far I see the AI-gameplay as the only real problem. But this could be a problem so massive that the idea may must be abolished simply because of that.


One more thing:
============

If the AI-gameplay allows it that the ideas could be realized (maybe with a minor adaption of AI-gameplay) and they would be approved by gamers and devs I would want these ideas realized as OPTIONS.


Like you can enable/disable "fog of war" or "supply" you could enable/disable "light AA-units with ground attack ability" and "extended defense range for AA-units".

Everyone who wants to play the game the same way as ever could do this by simply playing with these options disabled.

[matterhorn]

Your thoughts are interesting...

I created an equipment file for a new mod. Among other things, each aa unit can be... switched, to antitank or ground combat mode. Numbers have been finished. I will publish this in the next few weeks.

I haven't come to the conclusion to drop switching altogether. In some way you are right: it's simple to change, and aa units won't be overlooked so often again. However, I am not totally concinced...

I think if I drop switching it would make those aa units stronger and/or cheaper than some antitank and infantry units. Especially in the early years you'll find that some antitank units would become obsolete.

Instead, I decided to give light aa units minimum movement movement points. Each can move 2 hexes at minimum. (Except the 8.8.)

Thanks. I understand what you say about balance, believe me I was thinking about that too.

There are not only the stats. In combat the AT gets an INI-Advantage against attacking tanks. This is not reflected in the stats.
In the past (power-core-playing) I disbanded the 3.7 Pak. But I played with what I was given the last time and it did better than expected in the '39 campaign.

A SP AA-unit might be strong against infantry, yes. There are historical examples for it that it's true (see airbornemongo's example).
But when an enemy tank unit catches a SP AA-unit... there will be blood.
With an infantry unit you can use terrain: in cities, swamps, forests, mountains, hills, ... you can give enemy tank units a very hard time.
One time I was able to wipe out an experienced full-strength IS 2-unit in the city with one attack of a 5-OS SE-Grenadier unit without losses.

You can't (successfully) engage anywhere 10-strength unsuppressed tanks (even weak contemporary tanks) with a SP AA-unit.

That's one big advantage of Infantry.

[shawkhan]

The interesting thing about the '88' is that it was also used extensively as artillery, a triple threat!
The problem with allowing AA to function as regular ground combat is that the troops were not trained in a ground combat role, and the gun mounts were not that suitable in many cases for firing at ground level while staying concealed. The '88' as used in the NA desert was often dug in until the barrel was a scant foot or two from the ground when used in combat. This took a while.
Other than that, combat doctrine was the only limiter in how to employ AA weapons. Everyone is familiar with the British hvy AA that was as suitable as the '88' in many respects but simply not used as an AT weapon because the Brits couldn't allow an AA weapon to function as anything but AA. Allowing more AA to switch function would certainly make them more attractive to purchase.

[bebro]

Just skimmed through the answers, but re the 2nd point (range):

In the current system, this would bring up inevitably the question (again) why not give other ground units ranged fire (tanks, spat etc.). IMO it would be better not to change this unless the whole ranged combat thing gets overhauled. But right now I think the current system works reasonably well, so not sure if we really want to change it fundamentally...

I think the limited ground attack capability for certain AA makes sense, whether as switch or just by changing the bracketed stats to positive. I would not do this for all AA units though. Switches have the pro that with extra gfx you can see right away whether a unit is in AA mode or not...(like with the 8,8)

[airbornemongo101]

I think the limited ground attack capability for certain AA makes sense, whether as switch or just by changing the bracketed stats to positive. I would not do this for all AA units though. Switches have the pro that with extra gfx you can see right away whether a unit is in AA mode or not...(like with the 8,8)

Big Heapin' Modder Bebro ..he speakum' da' truth

I'll say one thing,Matterhorn raised a good topic that is getting a good and civil discussion going.

[Messmann]

AA units were not used as offensive weapons. The 8.8 was used as defensive role and that was an exception.

They are way over powered in switch mode. They devastate infantry units.

Very non-historical. A fantasy general.

If I were to decide whether to leave it the way it is or not, I would certainly not opt for the latter. Given the history that I know and given the opinions of the audience here. And given the rather marginal role these light ada units play for average players, and given the aa units' weakness in ground defense.

I do not want to be haughty about this issue, either. As a modder wannabe, I feel somehow responsible for messing around with something that could turn things on its head. Even if only very few persons would play with these changes

However, I am still undecided... I understand you pointed out the following: leave it the way it is (razz); remove brackets of SPAA only (mongo); introduce ADA with arty capability and test it (ThvN, mongo); then remove brackets because AA are still vulnerable in many respects (matterhorn); and do not switch all units, and avoid ada/arty units (bebro).

A different option would be to allow ada units to switch to ground mode, but also, at the same time, to reduce their air attack when moving around in ground mode. In this situation, aa units would still be flexible enough to be used for ground attack while avoiding the arty scheme. The trade off would be that if there are still enemy aircraft around, these ada units would be useless for passive air defense. They are preoccupied with something else then. In your turn, you would have to switch again to their original role, at least if you wanted to benefit from better air attack values.

However, the ground mode stats would have to be different from the normal stats, the stats "with brackets". So far, I opted for a lower initiative and slightly lower ground attack values to lessen the effect of the at ini bonus you get when in the antitank role. Thus you cannot dash into the woods and cause havoc at will, so to speak. Not to mention the low close defense these aa units have.

I still tend to think that aa/at swiching should be allowed for each ada unit. There are only a few light aa units, and I don't know which one of these one could exclude from switching and why. The at icons of guille are all available already, by the way.

[Razz1]

Some units are switchable in the AT and AA Mod.

Usually they have less attack strength, less movement, less Ammo, less air defense.

The reason they may have less attack strength is for balance and training. As AA units were not intended to be offensive weapons.

The benefit of the switch is you can choose to attack.

The Sdkfz 10/4 proved to be too powerful with HA in the beginning of the war and latter on it could still get a hit or two against late tanks.

So that issue was resolved by keeping the HA in brackets. Now, when it switches to ground mode it can only be used on infantry.

As far as range goes, increasing it would give the player more of an advantage. However, there may be an idea to give it only to AI units., but then you would have to go back and edit all the maps and put light AA units on the map.

[matterhorn]

Some units are switchable in the AT and AA Mod.

Usually they have less attack strength, less movement, less Ammo, less air defense.

The reason they may have less attack strength is for balance and training. As AA units were not intended to be offensive weapons.

The benefit of the switch is you can choose to attack.

The Sdkfz 10/4 proved to be too powerful with HA in the beginning of the war and latter on it could still get a hit or two against late tanks.

So that issue was resolved by keeping the HA in brackets. Now, when it switches to ground mode it can only be used on infantry.

Giving the units a partial ground attack ability, against soft targets only, looks to me like a real good solution. Great.

As far as range goes, increasing it would give the player more of an advantage. However, there may be an idea to give it only to AI units., but then you would have to go back and edit all the maps and put light AA units on the map.

About what you say that you would have to go back and put light AA units on the map:
You mean heavy AA units become too powerful and a player might gets AA defense fire from a heavy AA unit he hasn't even spotted - placed 3 hexes away - when attacking a ground unit with an aircraft?
If so, this might be adressed by an extended defense range of 2 hexes for ALL AA units.
Then Heavy AA units would be less powerful in two ways: 1.) They could give defense fire only at a shorter distance. 2.) They could fire at a target which is 2 hexes away with only 1/2 instead of 2/3 of their strength.


That the advantage for the player is bigger than for the AI might be true.

The thought was, that extended defense range might be helpful when a core is not a power core:
- more infantry units. The most mobile units with Opel Blitz. Only a few elite units with SdKfz 250/251 which at least are able to fire back and sometimes inflicting some damage to attacking aircrafts
- a mix of SP and towed artillery. Towed artillery with Opel Blitz as transports
- a less powerful air force - in numbers and quality. At '45 in the east the fighters may being a mix of ME 262, FW 190 and ME 109
- keeping Stuka until the end and not upgrading it to BF 110 or ME 410 which are able in assisting mass attacks and finishing off damaged enemy fighters or bombers
- a reasonable (limited) number of AA units

Under those circumstances the advantage the player gets might be a fair advantage.

Admittedly in other cases the advantage might be indeed unfair. Because of this, one may consider a cheat code for it (when playing non-power core).
You would type 'AA unit range 2' for every AA unit (own and enemy) being able to give defense fire for ground units 2 hexes away with half of their strength and you would type 'AA unit range 1' for setting it back to default.

[ThvN]

As this thread is still alive and I finally have some time to type out my notes, I’ll give some more info on the things I’ve come across so far while modding these switchable AA units. Oh, and everybody here, thanks for all the comments on this subject, I hope my little contribution might save some time if anyone wants to mod these units. Let's just say that if my post means you won't run into the same problems as I did, I'm happy.

If you just remove the ‘brackets’ from the AA guns (in the eqp file these are the '-' minus symbols), they can fire at both ground and air targets within range. But if a hex is occupied by both a ground and an air unit, the gun will only fire at the ground unit. So this may limit the usefulness of the AA unit, because you can no longer select your target if both air/ground are in the same target hex. And the unit now has a ranged attack vs. ground targets, which is a very powerful tool. I personally do not use this setup for these reasons.

The SPAAG units are relatively easy to model, I try to make sure the stats are different in AA/AT mode, hopefully this will prevent the AI from misusing them too often. But they still can be a little bit too good sometimes, at least that is my opinion. As I have them now, the mobile AAA (SPAAG) is quite good, I usually keep them in front of an artillery unit, they can rack up kills against suppressed targets easily, and they are quite cheap, fast and have good ammo/fuel stats as well.

All in all I think they can be very good unit if used carefully. Of course they will lose in a one-on-one duel with even a mediocre tank, but with a little support and common sense they can perform very well, and if you make the ground version an AT unit it will have the +3 ini bonus when defending against tanks (and infantry will have a +2 defense bonus if attacking this unit). As most of them already have fairly high ini values, this can make them more powerful than their very poor ground defense stats make them appear. But one-on-one, yeah, they are only good for finishing off nearly dead units.

Still, I like to have my AAA units be effective in ground combat as well. Like airbornemongo101 has explained, these units could be devastating when used against ground troops. I don't know exactly where Mr. Mongo's healthy respect for them comes from, but I won't be surprised if the letters 'ZSU' are involved somewhere... I just think it is very interesting that SPAAG's are usually few in number but they always get a mention when discussing effective suppression of light ground troops (WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Sovjet-Afghan war, Chechnya (Grozny)).

But on larger battlefield, these units are supposed to be support units that were spread out among bigger units, not separate regiments operating on their own. That is how I came up with the idea of making the 'ground' version into range 1 artillery, so it will act about the same wether it is in AA or ground mode, at least that is what I hope .

My next plan is to give them relatively weak attack figures in artillery mode to try to get the AI to use them as AAA, but still keep them useful for the player. But it will be a long time before I will have tested all this and decided. So for now it's just an idea for others to try out.

The towed AAA units provide some headaches as well, since they must all be measured against the almighty 88 and will come up short of course. But I wanted to keep them interesting and I’ve made a few changes which I like so far, all towed AA units except the single 20mm (Flak38) still have movement 1 but the 20mm Flak38 has 2, to represent the greater mobility. (I’ve also given the 37mm PaK a move of 2 with the same logic, BTW). The 88 has reduced RoF, to keep it from being too powerful. I’ve not found a way yet to give the 128mm good stats, these guns were used in static positions only and the 1 move is already too much IMHO. I might make it into an immobile AAA unit that switches into a 'transport' mode or something.

And a practical note, the towed 20mm Flakvierling (quad) is featured in the DLC's several times as auxiliary units, so make sure to get some usable stats for it because you will encounter it. This is what started my little adventure in modding attack animations, as there was no animation for a horizontal-firing quad AAA .

Besides the units themselves, the AI can be a bit strange when dealing with switchable units. A human player will often play it safe and leave AAA in anti-air mode, but the AI will often switch, move out of cover and attack a ground unit with it. It will depend on the stats and the orders it has, but it seems that in most scenarios the AI is not set up to handle switchable units well, so this may need to be modded as well as the units themselves. So it may be that it's not just the units that need modding for the best result.

[airbornemongo101]

Still, I like to have my AAA units be effective in ground combat as well. Like airbornemongo101 has explained, these units could be devastating when used against ground troops. I don't know exactly where Mr. Mongo's healthy respect for them comes from, but I won't be surprised if the letters 'ZSU' are involved somewhere... I just think it is very interesting that SPAAG's are usually few in number but they always get a mention when discussing effective suppression of light ground troops (WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Sovjet-Afghan war, Chechnya (Grozny)).

ZSU...BRDM..BMP...BTR..BMD..all of the T serieses and Lions and Tigers and Red Bears...OH MY!!!

They all have my respect , but anything with tires and treads makes a very good target..some just are harder to get to than others

In all seriousness there is one thing Mr. Ivan knows how to make and that's ADA. The ZSU series from the 57-2 up to and including the current inteneration of the Shilka are some awesome machines

Sorry for the off-topic