GS v2.20 sub warfare

[Peter Stauffenberg]

GS v2.20 is nearing completion. Right now we're testing the sub evasion and sweep values.

We also added code so hidden submarines won't stop enemy movement. This way you can't find enemy subs by just moving across an area. The subs can't stop the surface ships either. This means you move naval units to the are you think the sub is and make a sweep. All adjacent hexes will be checked and there is a percentage change to find the subs. The chance is based upon unit type and tech.

If the sub is found the sub has a chance to evade combat. The chance is based upon tech.

I think this will make the sub warfare a more cat and mouse game and it means the Allies will need more naval units (mostly DD's) for sub hunting.

Do we want the subs to be able to remain hidden and ambush surface naval ships like now?

If yes then we should probably let subs be flagged as sentry using the Z key. Subs with sentry set can not be detected by simple movement. If the sentry is not set then the sub will ambush normally. Units in sentry mode will be shown with ZZZ ontop of the icon.

What do you think is best?

Should we allow for subs to lie in ambush or just let hidden subs not affect surface ship movement at all?

[Cybvep]

If yes then we should probably let subs be flagged as sentry using the Z key. Subs with sentry set can not be detected by simple movement. If the sentry is not set then the sub will ambush normally. Units in sentry mode will be shown with ZZZ ontop of the icon.

I vote for this. Then it will become a tactical choice and not just a hardcoded rule.

[GogTheMild]

We certainly should let subs ambush, but an option for them to chose not to engage seems a sensible addition.

I assume that this means that surface units will 'bounce' if their movement ends on the same hex as a sleeping sub. Will they then be able to sweep?

[pk867]

Hi,

Good question.

Thought. Maybe the sub gets bounced so that you would not know and the surface ship can Sweep. If you bounce the ship then you know a sub is there.

[GogTheMild]

If you bounce the ship then you know a sub is there.

Well yes.

Maybe the sub gets bounced so that you would not know and the surface ship can Sweep.

Good idea if it is technically possible. Would represent the sub, under orders not to engage, taking emergency evasive action. Good thinking.

[jimwinsor]

I'm strongly in favor of having no option, and eliminating sub ambushes all together. I think they are too powerful as is (especially vs BBs and CVs) and any rule bringing them down a peg or two is to be greeted with hosannas of praise, IMO.

[avoran]

Thought. Maybe the sub gets bounced so that you would not know and the surface ship can Sweep. If you bounce the ship then you know a sub is there.

That sounds like a really good idea to me too.

[Morris]

Allow sub to lie & embush .

[Rasputitsa]

Vote yes to hidden, with the sentry mode option and bounce the sub rather than the surface fleet (but still with a chance to be detected) if the sub is set to avoid combat.

[jjdenver]

I'm not sure I understand the changes but I think one thing we don't want to see is subs able to completely prevent invasions by sitting hidden in a key hex that a transport needs to be able to move into for invasion purposes. I don't think subs should really (historically) be able to completely block invasions for weeks or months at a time, so maybe the subs can hide part of the rule needs to be in effect only if the sea hex is not adjacent to a land hex. In other words it works "at sea" but not in coastal waters. In coastal waters, it should be possible to locate and engage the subs to clear the hex for invasions.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Hidden subs can block surface ship movement in GS v2.1 too. As a matter of fact they will always block by making a surprise attack.

In GS v2.20 you should move your DD's adjacent to the coastal hexes you want to invade from and first SWEEP for subs in the hex. If it's a hidden sub there then you have a good chance of finding it and doing some damage. So you won't risk the transports sailing to the coastal hex and get ambushed.

The sub evasion and sweep rules means quite a few different options than before, but it's not hard to figure out what are efficient strategies. Expect subs to be more aggressive than before because they have a chance to evade every attack. They can be used as spies and remain hidden if sailed over. So you will see more of the cat and mouse game. Before you could sail 4-6 DD's along a parallell path checking all hexes they sailed across. Now you might sail over a sub and not notice them at all. So you need to stop movement somewhere and sweep around your destination hex. So subs that want to remain hidden will be harder to find. However, you know which hexes you really don't want subs in and make sure you sweep these hexes.

[Morris]

Hidden subs can block surface ship movement in GS v2.1 too. As a matter of fact they will always block by making a surprise attack.

In GS v2.20 you should move your DD's adjacent to the coastal hexes you want to invade from and first SWEEP for subs in the hex. If it's a hidden sub there then you have a good chance of finding it and doing some damage. So you won't risk the transports sailing to the coastal hex and get ambushed.

The sub evasion and sweep rules means quite a few different options than before, but it's not hard to figure out what are efficient strategies. Expect subs to be more aggressive than before because they have a chance to evade every attack. They can be used as spies and remain hidden if sailed over. So you will see more of the cat and mouse game. Before you could sail 4-6 DD's along a parallell path checking all hexes they sailed across. Now you might sail over a sub and not notice them at all. So you need to stop movement somewhere and sweep around your destination hex. So subs that want to remain hidden will be harder to find. However, you know which hexes you really don't want subs in and make sure you sweep these hexes.

I am sure the latest changes will cause great strategy change & effect the game a lot ! At least Allies will pay more to against u boat !

[Kragdob]

I really like the SUB changes. I REALLY like the choice to ambush or hide.

I have one question. If we can make SUBs not to block movement can't we do the same for transports?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

It will be hard to prevent blocking from transports because transports are visible all the time. So the computer code will know it's there and plot a path knowing the hex is occupied. The subs who are hidden should not be revealed so the code doesn't see them as in the path. Revealed subs will block movement as regular naval units.

This is why we added that transports can quite easily be retreated if attacked. So you can make a transport screen around your surface ships, but it would be easy to attack the screening transports to open a hole to get to the BB and DD providing supply.

Subs at the moment can't be retreated from battle because they would rather dive than retreat. Another reason is that we want to avoid strategies where you first attack the sub with airstrikes then with a DD to force a retreat so you can use another airstrike to attack again etc.

Surface ships can actually be attacked with quite a few airstrikes if you manage to get a retreat. So it will be very dangerous to enter an area where the enemy has at least air parity.

I think this means that e. g. the Allies will need quite a few CV units to get air cover around their units. Sailing into the Med to e. g. invade Sicily or mainland Italy will be very risky until you have secured airbases that can cover your naval units.

I think the current changes will make more focus on naval warfare. That alone will help balancing the game because the Allies will then get fewer PP's to spend on land and air units. Subs will probably be more aggressive against convoys since they can quite often evade retaliation attacks. So even escorted convoys will be possible to hit. That means you need 6 escorts to prevent the sub access to the convoy. Before you usually only needed 3 to scare the subs from going after your convoys.

At the moment we're testing the values for sub evasion and sweeps so they feel balanced. We could need more help with that. So send me a PM if you want to test. Just be aware that GS v2.2 is not compatible with GS v2.1

GS v2.2 is completed when it comes to development. All work remaining is fine tuning the balance and testing for bugs.

[Kragdob]

I see the solution that you make transports 'invisible' for the time of movement of naval units.

But OK, the change are a big step forward anyway and I like it.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

If you make the transports invisible it means you can't target them. That's not a good solution. We need to test out how things work with the changes. I believe fewer Axis players will use the transport blob to protect Sealion when the transports retreat easily if you attack them. That means the Royal Navy BB's can still reach the German BB. Once in direct contact the BB will soon be sunk and supply lost to the Axis units in England.

So Germany will have to use a different strategy and use subs instead to protect their surface ships. Subs take at least a bit longer to finish off.

It's actually quite historical that the Axis would almost sacrifice their entire navy on a Sealion invasion. The invasion of Norway cost them half their navy in sunk and damaged ships. That was less risky than Sealion.

[pk867]

go here for a partial list of v2.20 changes - viewtopic.php?f=18&t=41824&p=394883#p394883

[Kragdob]

If you make the transports invisible it means you can't target them. That's not a good solution. We need to test out how things work with the changes. I believe fewer Axis players will use the transport blob to protect Sealion when the transports retreat easily if you attack them. That means the Royal Navy BB's can still reach the German BB. Once in direct contact the BB will soon be sunk and supply lost to the Axis units in England.

So Germany will have to use a different strategy and use subs instead to protect their surface ships. Subs take at least a bit longer to finish off.

It's actually quite historical that the Axis would almost sacrifice their entire navy on a Sealion invasion. The invasion of Norway cost them half their navy in sunk and damaged ships. That was less risky than Sealion.

If you un-invisible transports before attack then this is handled.

I do not actually talk about Sealion, but rather transports being able to block narrow passages - where you would need just 2-3 of them to form 'double line' that will prevent from withdrawal,

Second situation is like this:
you have 1 BB and enemy is escaping its DD. You can surround the DD with the transports and use your BB to finish of the DD. It may be constly but again often you do not need 5 transport to surround, but 2-3 only.

[Morris]

If you make the transports invisible it means you can't target them. That's not a good solution. We need to test out how things work with the changes. I believe fewer Axis players will use the transport blob to protect Sealion when the transports retreat easily if you attack them. That means the Royal Navy BB's can still reach the German BB. Once in direct contact the BB will soon be sunk and supply lost to the Axis units in England.

So Germany will have to use a different strategy and use subs instead to protect their surface ships. Subs take at least a bit longer to finish off.

It's actually quite historical that the Axis would almost sacrifice their entire navy on a Sealion invasion. The invasion of Norway cost them half their navy in sunk and damaged ships. That was less risky than Sealion.

If you un-invisible transports before attack then this is handled.

I do not actually talk about Sealion, but rather transports being able to block narrow passages - where you would need just 2-3 of them to form 'double line' that will prevent from withdrawal,

Second situation is like this:
you have 1 BB and enemy is escaping its DD. You can surround the DD with the transports and use your BB to finish of the DD. It may be constly but again often you do not need 5 transport to surround, but 2-3 only.

In 2.2 , sealion will be more difficult !especially with the 2 free GARs

[Kragdob]

It is difficult in 2.1. 2.2 means end of Sealion - it will be only when Allies will make big mistakes.