Panzer Corps 2: Research Tree

[gnal]

A great improvement would be something like a research tree, in which you decide the direction of weapon development. In online games like "World of Tanks" or "World of Warplanes" are lots of prototype weapons, or even projects, who didn't make it from design table to real world. Perhaps you would rather have a Heinkel He 100 instead of a Messerschmidt Me 109 in 1935? Or what about an alternative to the slowness and bad manoeuvrability of Tiger Tanks? Or what about skipping battleships and focusing on submarines? It is your decison! The player would get lots of new strategic opportunities, but balancing of these could be hard.
Thanks,
Chris/Austria

[shawkhan]

I think research trees are great in strategic games like CEAW. This is an operational level game. I agree that it is fun to have additional units from which to choose. That is why for me captured units add a lot to the game. It is one Korps we are talking about here, part of a larger army, not an entire country.

[Kamerer]

I agree with shawkhan, it's a very cool concept but not exactly applicable to the operational focus of PC. I have in other places advocated perhaps a "Tech Bulletin" where the player is made aware of upcoming changes so they can shape their investments in weapons. Maybe that's useful, maybe not. PC as a game certainly has an element of long-term planning ( I hesitate to call it "strategic") by forcing choices on spending into different weapons platforms. And I also agree different weapons platforms are interesting - SU-122s and KV85s are very key parts of my corps by '45. But I think directing research spending gets away from what this game is.

[macattack]

I think the original PzG had no technology trees, but had a random event chance of discovering the next upcoming technology sooner. I vaguely recall having FW 190's in my Norway invasion.

[Rudankort]

I think the original PzG had no technology trees, but had a random event chance of discovering the next upcoming technology sooner. I vaguely recall having FW 190's in my Norway invasion.

I don't think PG1 had this, but would be interesting to hear what you guys think about such a feature? Would you like it in the game?

[Wiber]

Sounds interesting. Something like stealing a prototype from the enemy (if you don't steal it in time they get it to attack you instead). A special reward for a DV in Bonus scenarios, such as being given a unit that you can upgrade 6 months earlier than scheduled. Just not to many of them so they don't become an expected item (like SE have become).

Wiber

[Tarrak]

I think the original PzG had no technology trees, but had a random event chance of discovering the next upcoming technology sooner. I vaguely recall having FW 190's in my Norway invasion.

I don't think PG1 had this, but would be interesting to hear what you guys think about such a feature? Would you like it in the game?

I am 100% sure PG1 did not have such a feature. Not sure about the successors as i never liked them that much.

Regarding having this feature in PC2: I am generally not a big friend of to much randomness in such things. Already the awarding of SE units in PC seems a bit to random for me and encourages save/reload until you get one. This feature would only multiply the effect especially if you could get the technology way to early ... FW190 in Norway would be totally overpowered .. why not King Tigers in France? This would be pretty game breaking. If you could earn the tech maybe like maximally one mission earlier it could be OK i guess but i personally don't like it at all.

[macattack]

I think the original PzG had no technology trees, but had a random event chance of discovering the next upcoming technology sooner. I vaguely recall having FW 190's in my Norway invasion.

I don't think PG1 had this, but would be interesting to hear what you guys think about such a feature? Would you like it in the game?

I am 100% sure PG1 did not have such a feature. Not sure about the successors as i never liked them that much.

Regarding having this feature in PC2: I am generally not a big friend of to much randomness in such things. Already the awarding of SE units in PC seems a bit to random for me and encourages save/reload until you get one. This feature would only multiply the effect especially if you could get the technology way to early ... FW190 in Norway would be totally overpowered .. why not King Tigers in France? This would be pretty game breaking. If you could earn the tech maybe like maximally one mission earlier it could be OK i guess but i personally don't like it at all.

I agree that King Tigers in France is laughable. And it must have been the PzGII game that I am recalling. As I recall it, the technology jumps were only a scenario or two ahead of the normal development schedule. And likewise, every once and a while I would be facing a suped-up Spitfire that the allies weren't due to have yet. I'm not saying that in a 16 scenario tree where FW190's would appear in scenario 10, that you have them appear in scenario 2. That is your King Tigers in France example which is madness (albeit some really fun madness. Talk about your god mode). What I am saying is that there is a random chance that instead of scenario 10, you make unexpected advances in research and get the Fw190's in scenario 8 or 9. This way you don't undo the game design in a 16 scenario design.

And I respect your dislike of randomness. That is why a lot of players like the rock, paper, scissors games because you can take a lot of the randomness out of the game. We all tend to be of the mindset that we want to win, we know the strategy that should win, and when we use the correct strategy, we want our victory. Randomness (like the random result generator, or random troops or technology) is the enemy of rock, paper, scissors. Nothing pisses me off more than an M3 light tank beating one of my King Tigers on a fluke, or a 1942 Spitfire showing up in my 1941 scenario and wreaking havoc in my bf109's.

However, you have to take the bad with the good. Although randomness does give us some unhappy results on occasion, that is why Slitherine gave us a "save" button. Use it. If you don't like the save button undoing game design, then don't use it. If you don't like the temptation of using the save and reload buttons again and again to get your desired result, well honestly that is your flaw, not a design flaw. It's really no different than Slitherine posting all of the cheat codes. Although I am a save and reload cheater, I have never used a cheat code. Why? Because that would be cheating.

And more importantly, the randomness gives us replayability. I would love replaying the scenarios to see what advance technology units I could get. And furthermore, we all have memorized the combinations and strategies to win each scenario. Honestly, you get bored because you can't be beaten. Enemy advance technology throws a twist in replaying the scenario. It makes them challenging again.

I'm not looking for technology to completely upset the balance of play. I have cheat codes for that. I just want a surprise now and then if I want to replay the game. If you want, make it an option you can turn on or off. That should take away the problems of dislike and temptation.

[matterhorn]

I think the original PzG had no technology trees, but had a random event chance of discovering the next upcoming technology sooner. I vaguely recall having FW 190's in my Norway invasion.

I don't think PG1 had this, but would be interesting to hear what you guys think about such a feature? Would you like it in the game?

No

For my taste that would be too much. As said before, it's a game on operational level.

BTW
I’ve been playing PG from the 1st hour in ’95.
PC/DLCs/AK are really great.
It is easy to spoil an application/game by changes.
But the changes in PC were evolution at its best!
Keep on the good work.

[bebro]

I think the original PzG had no technology trees, but had a random event chance of discovering the next upcoming technology sooner. I vaguely recall having FW 190's in my Norway invasion.

Do you mean the prototype feature maybe that was in later PG games? Otherwise I think there was no technology or techtree material present, just new units becoming avalable as time went on.

Re the OP, I agree with shawkhan too -IMO it's not per se a bad idea, but it would rather turn PG/PzC into a different sort of game, like the "Commander" series.

[macattack]

I think the original PzG had no technology trees, but had a random event chance of discovering the next upcoming technology sooner. I vaguely recall having FW 190's in my Norway invasion.

Do you mean the prototype feature maybe that was in later PG games? Otherwise I think there was no technology or techtree material present, just new units becoming avalable as time went on.

Re the OP, I agree with shawkhan too -IMO it's not per se a bad idea, but it would rather turn PG/PzC into a different sort of game, like the "Commander" series.

Research or technology "tree" was a bad choice of words on my part. I should have said "schedule." And yes, I think they may have called it a prototype.

Like yourself, although I enjoy the Commander series research and technology participation and planning, I am not suggesting that for PzC. As I described above, this would just be a random chance of an advance in the technology schedule where you next next available upgrade would be available a scenario or two sooner. I know it was definitely in one of the PzG series. And it would only be possible on decisive victories. I believe the design line of reasoning is that you had advanced so quickly that advanced enemy technology had been captured which allowed a quicker deployment of one of your upgraded units. There was no analysis of technology, or research points, or a research tree or anything like that.

Make it like the weather or fog of war. Turn it on, or turn it off. However, it appears that I am the only one interested in such a thing, so I doubt there will be any further consideration.

[Zhivago]

I think the original PzG had no technology trees, but had a random event chance of discovering the next upcoming technology sooner. I vaguely recall having FW 190's in my Norway invasion.

I don't think PG1 had this, but would be interesting to hear what you guys think about such a feature? Would you like it in the game?

Absolutely--this would be a great feature. Kinda like Axis & Allies board game where a player can use Industrial Production Units (the rough equivalent of prestige points) to take a shot each turn at gaining at new technology. I think that meeting certain objectives (certain decisive victories, etc) should be a trigger for unlocking newer technology too.

[Jelinobas]

Don't like the idea...

[gnal]

Hi everyone!
My basic idea of a research tree was not to make a possibility to get King Tigers for France '40. It was something like this: Every half a year from the beginning of the campaign you can influence a project in weapon development. Sure, the game takes place at operational level. But in history commanders often tried to influence projects, sometimes with success.

For example, in 1933 a department of the German defence ministry startet a series of resear projects. One of them was "Rüstungsflugzeug III", a new single seat propulsion fighter. In the trials two years later participated the Arado Ar 80, the Focke Wulf Fw 159, Heinkel He 112 and, of course the Messerschmidt Me 109. You know which airplane won. At this place you can make another decision. Instead of the very fast and at the beginning not enough armed Me-109, you decide for the Heinkel model which is a bit underpowered, but much better armed (1x 20mm + 2x7,62mm).
Much more influence on your battlefield tactics would have alternative, very different to the real ones, tank types. There are many prototypes or projects, which didn't make it from scratch book. In an alternative development branch you can decide against the sherman tank, which wasn't an equal opponent for Tigers and Panthers. You decide for a much slower, better armoured alternative. Let's call it "Animalhunter" or whatever you want.

Here some other examples:

1938 Summer: Naval Force
Battleships || fast light cruisers || focus on submarine development (get Type IX earlier)

1942 Winter: Tank Destroyer
Ferdinand || 10.5 cm K gepanzerte Selbstfahrlafette || an early jagdpanzer based on panzer IV cassis

1944 Summer: Tanks
King Tiger || Panther 2 || perhaps something like a german version of the russian T-44, fast and good protected

1944 Winter: Fighters
Heikel He 162 || Dornier Do 334 || Messerschmitt Me P.1101

Each alternative model has it advances and flaws compared to the historical types.

[macattack]

:::shakes head:::
:::waits for Rudankort to ban him from the boards:::

[Zhivago]

Hi everyone!
My basic idea of a research tree was not to make a possibility to get King Tigers for France '40. It was something like this: Every half a year from the beginning of the campaign you can influence a project in weapon development. Sure, the game takes place at operational level. But in history commanders often tried to influence projects, sometimes with success.

For example, in 1933 a department of the German defence ministry startet a series of resear projects. One of them was "Rüstungsflugzeug III", a new single seat propulsion fighter. In the trials two years later participated the Arado Ar 80, the Focke Wulf Fw 159, Heinkel He 112 and, of course the Messerschmidt Me 109. You know which airplane won. At this place you can make another decision. Instead of the very fast and at the beginning not enough armed Me-109, you decide for the Heinkel model which is a bit underpowered, but much better armed (1x 20mm + 2x7,62mm).
Much more influence on your battlefield tactics would have alternative, very different to the real ones, tank types. There are many prototypes or projects, which didn't make it from scratch book. In an alternative development branch you can decide against the sherman tank, which wasn't an equal opponent for Tigers and Panthers. You decide for a much slower, better armoured alternative. Let's call it "Animalhunter" or whatever you want.

Here some other examples:

1938 Summer: Naval Force
Battleships || fast light cruisers || focus on submarine development (get Type IX earlier)

Yeah, I agree with this approach. Very incremental increases. Like 43 Grenadiers becoming available in 42, or a model panzer being available a few months sooner.

1942 Winter: Tank Destroyer
Ferdinand || 10.5 cm K gepanzerte Selbstfahrlafette || an early jagdpanzer based on panzer IV cassis

1944 Summer: Tanks
King Tiger || Panther 2 || perhaps something like a german version of the russian T-44, fast and good protected

1944 Winter: Fighters
Heikel He 162 || Dornier Do 334 || Messerschmitt Me P.1101

Each alternative model has it advances and flaws compared to the historical types.

[deducter]

In an alternative development branch you can decide against the sherman tank, which wasn't an equal opponent for Tigers and Panthers. You decide for a much slower, better armoured alternative. Let's call it "Animalhunter" or whatever you want.

As a piece of trivia, the Soviet SU-152 was nicknamed "Zveroboy," meaning "animal killer," since it was capable of knocking out Panthers, Tigers, and Ferdinands (Elefants).

[brettz123]

I think that would be a pretty bad idea and really not add anything to the game. If someone wants I have no problem with giving someone a single prototype unit earlier than normal. This is what they did in PG2. I remember getting a single tiger and some airplanes earlier than usual.

[macattack]

I think that would be a pretty bad idea and really not add anything to the game. If someone wants I have no problem with giving someone a single prototype unit earlier than normal. This is what they did in PG2. I remember getting a single tiger and some airplanes earlier than usual.

See! I knew I wasn't losing my mind! And I agree. We don't need research and technology trees. I was just talking about prototype units.

[FOARP]

I seem to remember one of the SSI "General" games (not PG1, but I don't remember which - possibly People's General?) allowing you to be rewarded with prototype units a few months ahead of their general release. It was a fun and rewarding mechanic that I'd like to see in Panzer Corps.