Terrain visibility

[Russ1664]

I’d appreciate some help with understanding the visibility issues with difficult terrain that arose in our last game. Our case in question was that we had an enemy infantry unit firing out of the north side of a dense wood at some friendly cavalry. Close to the south side of the woods was a friendly infantry unit. The question is, can the friendly reformed infantry fire through the wood at the enemy infantry? There was about 1MU of open to the wood then 3-4 MU of dense woods between both infantry units.
The rules guidance (Page 97) for dense woods is “Troops in a dense wood can only be seen at 2MU unless firing, and also count as in cover” Further it says troops beyond woods cannot be seen through…….”
So what does “unless firing” imply for visibility? Seen at any range? Or, as the dense woods, also count as cover then, “Troops wholly inside can only be seen at 6MU range, unless firing out”. (Note that this is subtly different to the definition for dense woods, which should apply?) Is the intent that if they were shooting at an enemy unit also in the same cover they cannot be seen from outside?

In our case we ruled the unit could not be shot at, rationalising that it must be difficult to get lines of sight of about 120m (2MU) through a thick wood. Implying perhaps a general rule of being able to see through no more than 2MU of dense woods? Have others had a similar situation arise, grateful for any thoughts on how this type of situation has been resolved by others?

many thanks,


Russ

[hazelbark]

I don't have my rules with me but if I recall the principle is if he is shooting then he can be shot at.

[adonald]

Interesting question

Bear in mind that a reformed infantry unit , in fact, occupies a space 6MU in front of it – it is the area filled with its skirmishing troops, bobbing around and taking pot shots at enemy in that area.

So, when a friendly reformed unit is 4MU from an enemy unit in a wood, that intervening wooded area is infested by the friendly unit’s light infantry component. So, it is quite likely that the rules would allow you to shoot ‘through’ an area of dense woodland, because that area is occupied by your light infantry. They may be shooting at the enemy unit with ia few yards of their position, but the game design allows for that.

It is important to realise that a reformed unit’s base footprint is NOT what area it’s troops are occupying.

Alastair Donald

[deadtorius]

The rules guidance (Page 97) for dense woods is “Troops in a dense wood can only be seen at 2MU unless firing, and also count as in cover” Further it says troops beyond woods cannot be seen through…….So what does “unless firing” imply for visibility? Seen at any range? Or, as the dense woods, also count as cover then, “Troops wholly inside can only be seen at 6MU range, unless firing out”.”

If your troops move to within 2 MU of dense woods you can freely shoot at them, for example it is your phase you are within 2 MU of some dense woods with enemy lurking about, you can shoot at them.
If you are more than 2 Mu away from the woods the troops in the woods will only reveal themselves by shooting at you. All that smoke and noise definitely exposes their position.
If they have shot at you then you can shoot at them with any troops who are within range (up to 6MU for reformed troops) They get the cover POA for being shot at. So if it is your turn and you are more than 2 MU away and they have not had the opportunity to shoot at you you can't shoot at them. During their phase they shoot at you and reveal their position. Next turn when you are not the active phasing player you can return fire at them as you would be shooting second. I would assume that even if they do not shoot at you during their own turn you can shoot at them with all troops in range and arc since they exposed themselves during your turn.

The same situation applies to troops in the same woods, the max you can see is 2 Mu so you have to be within 2 MU to shoot within woods at an enemy. All those trees and whatnot make it harder to see while inside than to be outside looking in at shooting enemy.

As for not being able to shoot at targets beyond the woods, if you are on one side of the woods and your line of sight crosses the woods to an enemy on the other side of the woods, you can not shoot. The woods blocks all line of sight through it. Similar situation applies to hills where if your troops are on a reverse slope or ground level behind the hill, you can't see troops on the opposite slope or on ground level on the other side as the hill blocks your line of sight. Buildings are also a similar block to line of sight.
Sometimes it helps to imagine yourself standing somewhere looking about and noticing what blocks your vision .

Hope this helps a bit.

[Blathergut]

I think the original question, in part, referred to a situation where:

a) enemy unit is shooting out/at edge facing friendly unit

Obviously this friendly unit can see and shoot back.

but

b) another friendly unit is behind the woods, on the opposite side

Can it also 'see' and shoot? I think the thought is that since the unit in the woods has not fired out in that opposite direction, it can't be seen by the second friendly unit until the second friendly comes within 2MU inside the woods.

The rules probably read that the second friendly can shoot once within 6MU. But it does make some sense to say it couldn't. Although, since the enemy unit is making a lot of noise and smoke...

[adonald]

The rules probably read that the second friendly can shoot once within 6MU. But it does make some sense to say it couldn't.

Not if you consider that the 6MU area in front of a reforned infantry base(s) is occupied by it's skirmish screen. Your troops are NOt observing from their base edge, but from up to 6MU in front.

Alastair Donald

[Blathergut]

So then why, if the unit in cover doesn't shoot, can I not see it until I am within close range?

[deadtorius]

The skirmish lines location changes depending on the situation. In the case of being in woods they might be the boys at the edge with the line troops further back or could be deployed further out of the woods but still close enough to fall back if needed. Although not shown they can be up to 4MU out front allowing for 2 MU of shooting range from your inherent skirmish line, thus the 6MU range for light infantry and reformed troops. Its a rule mechanic that works well as you don't have to actually deploy and move a skirmish line on the table, the extra range covers their deployment as their local commanders see fit.

[adonald]

So then why, if the unit in cover doesn't shoot, can I not see it until I am within close range?

You COULD say the unit in the woods has only decided to deploy its skirmish screen 2MU in front of its main body. Therefore, as you come up, you will only see the enemy's skirmishers or mian body when you are 2MU away from the main body (tehnically, at 2MU the skirmish screen has been withdrawn). Remember the opponent in the woods can chose NOT to shoot at you at meduim range - that actually represents how far forward he has thrown his skirmish screen. In teh case of visual cover, it is 2MU. If he decides to shoot at you from 2MU to 6MU, he's thrown forward his skirmishers and engaged you.

Remember, most skirmish screen actions occurred at 50 metres seperation or less due to the inaccuracies of the musket. Even riflemen shot at relatively close rane, especually other skirmishers who were 'bobbing' about.

Using a refiomed unit against an unreformed formation,

Alastair

[Russ1664]

Many thanks for the thoughts and advice I've found it most useful. I think I need to keep the mental image of the area covered by reformed troops in mind when considering firing areas, both inside and outside of cover.

Russ

[deadtorius]

remember you can always pre-measure if that helps. pesky Froggies hovering about at 6 MU.....

[Blathergut]

mwhahahaha...wait until next game!