V2 Hardback. Poor quality, poorer customers service

[zoltan]

RE the print on demand books; we have decided to phase these out. Future stock will come from our original printers and they have worked hard with us to get minimum quantity orders through their system, it's not quite print on demand and we will need to swallow the expense and risk of carrying some stock, but apart from what we finally hope is the very best solution available to us the price will be held. This whole process has been a real challenge and significant expense to arrive at almost full circle:-). I still think tablet platforms are the way to go for tabletop rule systems and we may revisit this again when the release schedule on our "real" business eases up.
JDM

So will the return to one-off print runs of books mean iPad 'annual updates' are (unfortunately) off the agenda? In other words iPad updates will now only be issued in the future when they can be synchronised with a new print run of hardbacks?

[jdm]

Not at all, as I have repeatedly said, the way to go for tabletop rules in my view is still the new tablet platforms and I think that eventually the hobby will come to see the advantages

[dave_r]

Not at all, as I have repeatedly said, the way to go for tabletop rules in my view is still the new tablet platforms and I think that eventually the hobby will come to see the advantages

There are distinct advantages, but there are also disadvantages.

Advantages:
- Ability to search the rules without looking through index, contents, etc, etc
- Truly portable without a heavy book literally weighing you down
- Ability to have all rules and army lists in one easy place - it's not really possible to bring all 13 army books with you
- Eradicates FAQ's, clarifications and can have instant updates

Disadvantages
- Leaving a tablet on the side of a table is not great with the risk of theft (especially if everybody knows there are 200 tablets within swiping distance)
- Battery life may mean it's not possible to go a full day without the need for power
- Not everybody has a table, meaning initial large outlay in buying one if you don't already have one
- Given the average wargamer demographic, not everybody want's to buy a tablet

As can be seen, the disadvantages could be applied to mobile phones 20 years ago - now I don't know a single person who doesn't have one, so with time the disadvantages will likely disappear whilst the advantages still stand.

I suspect 2012 was a bit early for no paper copy, but perhaps 2014 or 2015 may be doable.

[Scruff]

I like the idea of tablet for army list books for all rule systems, but for the actual rules, I prefer having a paper book.

[kevinj]

I am glad the rules are available on tablet as that would be my preferred format but I am somewhat disappointed with the implementation. Since the current version doesn't use any iPad features (like zooming) and there's not even a simple text search function, i believe it would have been much better to have provided the rules in a more accessable format, such as Kindle which would have then been available on iOS or Android tablets, ereaders or even smartphones.

[batesmotel]

I think the real problem with the tablet version of FoG was the choice of the Abannan reader. With the combination of only supporting the iPad for the tablet platform and the very limited functionality of the reader, e.g. no zoom, no search capability, awkward navigation, the initial V2 release offered little to recommend itself. The Abannan platform is designed for the delivery of high quality glossy magazines on a tablet and for that it offers sufficient functionality. For a set of rules which are used much more like a reference book or text book, this is the wrong functionality and the limitations of the reader meant that the rules were of restricted usability even for those who have or were willing to make the investment in an (over priced IMHO) iPad and to risk using it under tournament conditions. Other players have instead decided to go with PDF versions of their rules and I think these are a much better choice in terms of both providing more functionality than the Abannan reader does as well as working on nearly all tablet platforms (I am unaware of any that are not supported) as well as allowing the player an ability to print the rules if hard copy is required. Since it sounds like Slitherine does not expect to make significant money on the rules at any rate, I think that the PDF format would have been a better use of Slitherine's time and resources as well as being likely to achieve better market penetration. A well written app should be able to provide more and better functionality than a PDF format could but the Abannan reader certainly does not do that for a set of miniature rules. If Abannan does eventually support Android (as it appears they plan to do) I probably will buy a copy of the rules for my Android Nexus 7 tablet in addition to the PC copy I have, but I would be much happier with a PDF version.

Chris

[zoltan]

All good comments but as I understand it despite my having bought into the digital revolution (making regular rules updates/clarifications possible) all the v1 FAQs still apply as a 'supplement' to the rules tablet and release of a further app version is constrained to the next POD print run.

[babyshark]

I still think tablet platforms are the way to go for tabletop rule systems and we may revisit this again when the release schedule on our "real" business eases up.
JDM

I think you're right, JD, but not quite yet. Tablets are not quite universal enough. Perhaps by the time FoG:N goes to v2, or FoG:AM goes to v3.

In the mean time, thanks for listening to the rest of us and putting out the dead tree edition.

Marc

[jdm]

No problem Marc, I sometimes miss the rough and tumble of tabletop debate, we are going to Historicon this year , are you attending

[hazelbark]

No problem Marc, I sometimes miss the rough and tumble of tabletop debate, we are going to Historicon this year , are you attending

Bring good beer as you are in a desert. Although the miniatures room has lots of secret stash.

[madaxeman]

What a thread! I particularly like...

RE the print on demand books.....<snip "we admit it, we were wrong, you were all right">...to arrive at almost full circle:-).

followed directly by :

I still think ...<snip "however I think we're still right"> ....JDM

and then;

I think the real problem with ....<snip detailed and well thought out critique of why abannan-based V2.0 was fundamentally flawed >...does not do that for a set of miniature rules.

followed directly by;

If Abannan does ...<snip "however I'll still buy it">... Chris

Imagine where we'd be if we were debating the actual content of the rules rather than just the format

[babyshark]

No problem Marc, I sometimes miss the rough and tumble of tabletop debate, we are going to Historicon this year , are you attending

I do hope to be there; it all depends on whether I have the vacation days left. It would be good to see you lot there.

Marc

[stenic]

As a final post to this topic I'd like to add that Slitherine came good and my new copy of v2 rules arrived. The new binding is much improved and I'm very happy with my replacement.

Many thanks to all those at Slitherine who helped resolve the issue.


Steve Price

[IainMcNeil]

When we update the digital version of the rules is when people will start to see the major benefits of the digital format. Until then it's really just a matter of what you prefer so I think we need to reserve judgement till we have some updates

We're also working to improve the reader and hope to have some significant improvements in the not too distant future.

[Scruff]

I hope that any change, even if its just a reformat of something, will be recorded in like a live doc so that people with hardbacks can keep up to date. Sure would hate to go to an event and find a couple electronic people are playing a different set of rules to the hardbackers.

cheerskers

[Philotomy]

I think the real problem with the tablet version of FoG was the choice of the Abannan reader. With the combination of only supporting the iPad for the tablet platform and the very limited functionality of the reader...

This is what prevents me from purchasing the digital/tablet rules. I have an Android tablet and my PC runs Linux, so the technology choices made for the digital FoG 2 rules left me completely out in the cold. And I don't see any good reason for it, as there are plenty of choices that would offer much, much better cross-platform capability and thus a larger potential market.

If Abannan does eventually support Android (as it appears they plan to do) I probably will buy a copy of the rules for my Android Nexus 7 tablet in addition to the PC copy I have, but I would be much happier with a PDF version.

I'd *definitely* buy an Android version.

[acl]

RE the print on demand books; we have decided to phase these out. Future stock will come from our original printers and they have worked hard with us to get minimum quantity orders through their system, it's not quite print on demand and we will need to swallow the expense and risk of carrying some stock, but apart from what we finally hope is the very best solution available to us the price will be held. This whole process has been a real challenge and significant expense to arrive at almost full circle:-). I still think tablet platforms are the way to go for tabletop rule systems and we may revisit this again when the release schedule on our "real" business eases up.
JDM

This is excellent news. Slitherine have done well in responding to their customers. Wish more companies were as efficient.

Is there any further news on when the conventionally printed copies will be available?

Alan

[jdm]

They are available now Alan

[hangarflying]

I just wanted to throw in my $0.02 as a new customer. I ordered my copy of the book this last Sunday at about 11 pm. It was in my mail box on Wednesday afternoon. Having read this thread, I was concerned whether or not my book would break. It would appear (at least when compared to the OP) that my book has come from a second printing as the binding appears to be sewn rather than glued.

I am quite happy with my investment. The book is absolutely gorgeous! The layout and artwork is stunning. The heavy paper gives it a solid durable feel, and I like the "new book" smell. Though, I have to admit, when I opened the box, I was taken aback a bit. You know how when you're set up on a blind-date with a girl, and you learn a lot about her and see pictures of her, but you still have in your mind an image of what she looks like that is sort of based off of the women you know in your life, and then she shows up on your door step and she's this little foreign hottie potatie, and she's hot but there is still something about her that didn't quite fit your expectations, and then you learn about her dirty little secret and you think "ah yeah, this girl is all sorts of nasty hot" and she goes from being something like a 7 or an 8 to an 11? Yeah, it was kinda like that kind of feeling. Well, first the box wasn't quite as big as I thought it would be, and the book left me with that "something is off juuuuuuuust a little bit" feeling but I really liked what I was seeing. After reading through the book and seeing a lot of the words misspelled with "ou" instead of the more ergonomical "o", I have come to realize that this book must have been printed in one of those funny "British" sizes. It has a solid and stocky feel to it. Nice! And I'm not afraid to slap it around a bit.

As far as the tablets, I do agree that they have their advantages, but dead tree versions will never disappear. I was debating whether or not to do the iPad app or get the book (especially after reading the OP's initial post). After looking into the app, I realized that it wasn't for me and I would rather have risked a book with a bad spine (and pay more money for it) than get the app. Now, if the digital version of the book had been a .PDF, I would have purchased that along with every single supplement book that my bank account could handle IN ADDITION to purchasing the physical copy of the rulebook. FWIW.

Thanks again for the awesome book!

[philqw78]

I like the "new book" smell.

Slitherine will now be selling this as a perfume for wargamers's wives.