Long term suppression or not?

[CrimsonStorm]

Ok I've just started playing through the tutorials and maybe I've missed something but it seems like long term suppression from artillery isn't.

Basically my artillery shoots a unit and the health now shows as 10-7/10 So they have 7 of their guys long term supressed. They are well dug in with entrenchment 6.

My infantry unit attacks and kills 1. Their sheet now reads 9/10. As they only had 3 guys attacking I took no casualty. My second infantry unit that was already standing there to give the initiative penalty now attacks. I kill 2 more, but get 3 killed in return as they fired back with all 9 guys. Did they suddenly forget they were being shelled?

They are also strangely still standing there when by rights they should be heading for the hills 3 dead and 7 suppressed supposedly.

[Horseman]

"long term" suppresion only lasts until the 1st normal atack is iniated against the target, sounds like you had some bad luck with the 1st attack!

[El_Condoro]

I think artillery suppression is for the next attack only. Multiple artillery attacks will increase suppression (white-orange-red strength number). If you attack a suppressed unit it will be against the unsuppressed strength of the unit but the unit will not be suppressed in subsequent attacks from the artillery fire. This is unlike strategic bombers which will suppress for the whole turn. Note, this is my understanding - I, too, would like to have it confirmed or corrected! Cheers

[Horseman]

I've only had long term suppression caused by artillery and ships so far...both of these last only until the next regular (ground) attack, I've noticed air attacks on suppressed units do not remove the suppression

I've only used a level bomber to attack ships so far so can't comment if thier suppression lasts longer

[CrimsonStorm]

I'm tempted to replay the 2nd tutorial to try and get the message about long term supression again. I'm sure it says the entire turn..which would make it a bug. Personally it comes down to sequencing and turn length.

If a turn is 1 day, you attack with artillery then infantry then a 2nd infantry unit, how long does each last? ie artillery bombardment for 1 hour from 7am to 8am, then an infantry attack from 8am till 9am and then the 2nd infatry attack arrives at 2pm? This makes sense for the surpression to be gone as they have had 5 hours without any attacks.

However if you assume that the artillery is a constant bombardment throughout the day, and called in by the attacking infantry units, both of whom would have coordinated to arrive at the same time from different directions (indicated by the mass attack initiative loss) then surely the artillerys long term supression should be for every combat.

I know its a totally different game mechanic but I would love to see an option to declare an attack and then add supporting units with the whole thing being resolved in 1 set of rolls. ie 10 attack rolls from the artillery, 0 hits 6 supressed. Defender is entrenched so still has the initiative, 3 attack rolls against infantry A, then 3 against infantry B ((unsupressed count/number of attackers) +1), lets say 1 kill 1 supressed and 2 supressed. Then 16 attack rolls back from the 2 attacking infantry units. This would make you think more about what to declare in an attack. ie do you add that extra 3rd infantry unit to ensure you kill him or do you hold it back and attack after without the artillery support if its needed.

[Rudankort]

I think artillery suppression is for the next attack only. Multiple artillery attacks will increase suppression (white-orange-red strength number). If you attack a suppressed unit it will be against the unsuppressed strength of the unit but the unit will not be suppressed in subsequent attacks from the artillery fire. This is unlike strategic bombers which will suppress for the whole turn. Note, this is my understanding - I, too, would like to have it confirmed or corrected! Cheers

Long term suppression works the same for all units, so no exception for strategic bombers.

[El_Condoro]

So, do ART units give it? I know from experience a unit suppressed by artillery can have a red strength number that changes to white after a ground attack, so I am assuming artillery gives temporary/short term suppression.

[Tarrak]

So, do ART units give it? I know from experience a unit suppressed by artillery can have a red strength number that changes to white after a ground attack, so I am assuming artillery gives temporary/short term suppression.

It is the only kind of suppression in PanzerCorps. Long term suppression in PC means simply until the next ground attack. As far i know no kind of units in PC generate a suppression that lasts until the end of turn. This is a change from PanzerGeneral.

[Rudankort]

So, do ART units give it? I know from experience a unit suppressed by artillery can have a red strength number that changes to white after a ground attack, so I am assuming artillery gives temporary/short term suppression.

It is called "long-term suppression" in the game, because, unlike "normal" suppression, it persists after combat. And if, for example, you suppress enemy arty this way, it will remain unable to provide defensive fire for the entire turn. Long-term suppression is only cancelled if you do a hand-to-hand attack on enemy unit.

[El_Condoro]

OK, thanks to both previous posts. I was applying a PG definition.

[Molve]

It is called "long-term suppression" in the game, because, unlike "normal" suppression, it persists after combat. And if, for example, you suppress enemy arty this way, it will remain unable to provide defensive fire for the entire turn. Long-term suppression is only cancelled if you do a hand-to-hand attack on enemy unit.

Ok, so now I know what "long-term suppression" is.

But what is "normal" suppression then?

(If your answer is "it occurs during the invisible internal steps of the combat procedure, but is never shown to the player", then to avoid all the confusion I suggest "long-term" suppression is renamed into simply "suppression"; and "long-term suppression" is reserved for possible future use where the suppression actually lasts longer than a single fight).

[willgamer]

But what is "normal" suppression then?

Normal suppress is supression that is cancelled (removed) after the next combat during the same turn (and is always removed at the end of the turn, if no combat).

[Wiber]

Hate to be impertinent but -

All suppression ends at end of turn or end of close (as opposed to ranged) combat.
Artillery and Strategic Bombers cause long term suppression. It remains after the unit causing it has completed it's combat and is cumulative. For example Arty 1 bombards a unit of 10 strength with a result of 2 kills and 3 suppressed. The unit will now show as yellow strength 8 and 8-3/10 as its strength. Arty 2 bombards the unit with a result of 1 kills and 2 suppressed. The unit will show as orange or red (not sure of the actual thresholds for suppression indication) strength 7. In the unit info panel the strength will now show as 7-5/10. If the unit is now engaged in close combat (by an infantry, tank, recon, AT that is anything that can be shot back at, it will fight at the reduced strength, that is only 2/7 of its strength). If a strategic bomber or naval unit larger than a destroyer now attacks it it too will cause cumulative long term suppression. Once the unit has been involved in a close combat (IE got to shoot at something), it gets over the long term suppression. Long term suppression makes the soldiers 'run and hide' until they are forced to come out to fight for their lives or the turn ends. For this reason it is wise to use artillery to suppress opposing artillery and AA before engaging in close combat or ordering in the Luftwaffe to soften things up on adjacent units.

A fighter, tactical bomber, smaller naval unit or close combat unit (AT , Tank, Inf, Recon), gets what is called short term suppression. That is it causes suppression of strength but only during its own combat. For example a tank attacks a strength 10 infantry unit causing 2 kills and 2 suppressed. At the end of that combat the units strength is 8/10 (instead of 8-2/10). The point of short term suppression is only realized when there is an initiative advantage as well. If the tank has a full 5 point (100%) initiative advantage then during the counter attack phase of the combat the infantry will only fight with a strength of 6 (10 - 2 killed - 2 suppressed). Getting the initiative advantage is what massed attacks are all about as it reduces the enemies chance to fight back and inflict casualties.

I haven't yet noticed whether AA causes long or short term suppression of airborne units (which would make them even more useful as defensive units). I only ever use the 88 AA/AT as any AA unit that can't put a hole in a KV2 isn't worth bringing along.

Hope this helps
Wiber

[dumbttt]

Long term suppression last through the enemys turn right? So if I end turn w an enemy unit w 2 suppressed, will he remain suppressed when he try to fight me?

[Wiber]

No not the suppression types I have described above. You can see when the opponent goes first in a few scenarios, they attack and suppress your units but once it is your move they are hale and hearty once again (provided they survived). have just been browsing the Equip file and found that there is an additional trait called lsup that is presumably this long term suppression. The trait only applies to the Dornier Do 17 Z, and the Heinkel He 111 H-2 (in the German forces anyway) I changed my two JU88 strength 13 to one of each type and visited an infantry unit and armoured unit. Neither suppression lasted past the end of turn. In their phase of the move they were able to do replacements, and attack me. The attack log indicated that the long term suppression did not affect their attack (ie no effect on their unsuppressed strength). So as far as I can tell the lsup trait does not do anything.

Wiber

[ThvN]

Very good explanation.

To add, the "lsup" trait isn't used, there is a thread about traits linked to by the FAQ and this is mentioned somewhere. And the AAA units do not give any long term suppression, I've been testing them a lot during the past months and they work like normal units.

There is, however, one type of suppression that actually lasts into and during the opponent's turn, and that is the suppression that paratroopers receive the turn they are dropped. This is a 50% suppression, so they are effectively at half strength during that turn, and they stay at 50% suppression during the next opponent's turn as well.

So if you drop any paratroopers, they are suppressed 50% in the turn you drop them and this remains all the way through the opponent's turn, until your next turn begins, then it clears. This is the only example of suppression lasting into an opponent's turn that I know of.

[dumbttt]

Thanks. I've always thought longterm suppression means lasting into the opponent's turn, because his turn and mine are considered parts of a single "turn". In fact, if I thought my units were vulnerable, I sometimes bombed the opponent's spearhead units with strat bombers to blunt his attack. I guess that was useless. LOL.

[ThvN]

I sometimes bombed the opponent's spearhead units with strat bombers to blunt his attack. I guess that was useless.

You're welcome, and this strat bombing action can be useful, because strategic bombers' attack reduces a targets' ammo and fuel, and if they are very experienced they can reduce it quite a bit. So if you have no direct high-priority targets and the opponents' units are already low on ammo/fuel, this can be a very good tactic.

The most useless target to bomb with strat bombers are any empty hexes that are labeled as a victory hex but are not a city/harbour. It appears as a valid target (cursor changes, so it can be bombed) but it does nothing but waste your fuel and ammo. I tried, hoping I'd bomb away some prestige, but when I pressed 'L' to check, the combat log was completely empty. You can't bomb away the enemies' prestige this way, it turns out, although it appears as a valid target in the UI... Oh well, I just consider it a very realistic feature...

[Molve]

Artillery and Strategic Bombers cause long term suppression. It remains after the unit causing it has completed it's combat and is cumulative.

A fighter, tactical bomber, smaller naval unit or close combat unit (AT , Tank, Inf, Recon), gets what is called short term suppression. That is it causes suppression of strength but only during its own combat.

Thank you. Your explanation and mine seems equivalent. However, this brings me back to my point.

It is called "long-term suppression" in the game, because, unlike "normal" suppression, it persists after combat. And if, for example, you suppress enemy arty this way, it will remain unable to provide defensive fire for the entire turn. Long-term suppression is only cancelled if you do a hand-to-hand attack on enemy unit.

Ok, so now I know what "long-term suppression" is.

But what is "normal" suppression then?

(If your answer is "it occurs during the invisible internal steps of the combat procedure, but is never shown to the player", then to avoid all the confusion I suggest "long-term" suppression is renamed into simply "suppression"; and "long-term suppression" is reserved for possible future use where the suppression actually lasts longer than a single fight).

Don't call something that can end with the player's very next move "long term". It simply causes confusion where it's needed the least, by newcomers and beginning players.

Thank you

[Molve]

There is, however, one type of suppression that actually lasts into and during the opponent's turn, and that is the suppression that paratroopers receive the turn they are dropped. This is a 50% suppression, so they are effectively at half strength during that turn, and they stay at 50% suppression during the next opponent's turn as well.

This is the only example of suppression lasting into an opponent's turn that I know of.

With the 1.20 patch and new ruleset, reinforcements come suppressed this way too.

This is truly long-term suppression, and I strongly recommend Slitherine to change its terminology to only use the term for this kind of suppression.