DLC Map Critique (DLC39)

[KeldorKatarn]

No they didn't several Polish names on that map were changed after 1945. The older polish names were different ones for several cities. I checked that. That's why I asked for them to be changed.

[borsook79]

No they didn't several Polish names on that map were changed after 1945. The older polish names were different ones for several cities. I checked that. That's why I asked for them to be changed.

First and again, I do support changing them to German. I'm just saying (and this is not too relevant to the discussion) that you shouldn't claim the names did not exist before 1945. (of course there are exceptions of a sort, for example Grunberg was started by settlers from Flanders and Germany and this is it's first recorded name indeed, "Zielona Góra" did not become official until 1945, still the name was used by many Silesians and hence did exist). They existed for hundreds of years, of course they did evolve in that time, and yes, the game uses the modern alterations and not the medieval ones. But whichever Polish version would it use, still German names are preferred. To conclude the point I was trying to make was that it's not that some committee sat down in 1945 and made up those names, they were deeply rooted in Polish tradition. Oh, and to show you that you shouldn't worry, some of us are reading this very enjoyable thread very thoroughly.

[KeldorKatarn]

I'm not saying the names did not exist at all, but most names were never official before 1945 and some names even changed from the old to new polish names (which for some cities are completely different). I know there are polish names, after all where there's polish settlement or even a minority there will surely be a name for the place they're living in. My point is that a map in the game should represent a battle map like a General has it available, and that surely won't use names used by locals but internationally recognized names, which in this case certainly would be German where German terroritory is, or if Polish then the official name at the time of 1939, not one out of 1990 I'm the last person who's gonna start a discussion on who owns what city name. Let's leave that crap to youtube comments (where people seriously fight for pages over who's ancestor Spartacus was...). I just want the game to give me a feeling of having a real contemporary map available.

My biggest beef with german/polish cities wasn't even that a Polish name or a German name was used, but rather that it wasn't consistent. Either we say "If a German name exists, then we'll use it" or not. It makes no sense to call a city "Danzig" while the city clearly wasn't German at the time, but at the same time give cities that German Generals would have a German name for (Guderian especially, since he was born in the region when it was still German) Polish names and especially not for cities that in fact were German at the time.

So consistency would be prudent and I think any city that was part of Germany in 1914 should have its German name used. Not because of any "historical rigth" to the city name or such crap, but simply because if this was the case, then that would be the name that German Generals would have had on their maps, because most of them simply still knew these cities by their German name.

Also, where Warsaw and such cities are concerend, I'd really prefer to see either the local name "Warszawa" or the German name if there existed one (since we do play the Germans, and they'd have called the city Warschau and Moskau, e.g. I'd actually prefer the local names for cities that never were German. But having so many Polish, Russian, French etc cities in there, and then see English names like Warsaw and Moscow in there... that just doesn't fit. Might be a nod to the biggest target audience of this game but... really... anybody playing a game like this will be able to understand what Warszawa and Moskwa (no I don't want Kyrillic here ) means. But ah well... just my 2 cents

[borsook79]

I'm not saying the names did not exist at all, but most names were never official before 1945 and some names even changed from the old to new polish names (which for some cities are completely different). I know there are polish names, after all where there's polish settlement or even a minority there will surely be a name for the place they're living in. My point is that a map in the game should represent a battle map like a General has it available, and that surely won't use names used by locals but internationally recognized names, which in this case certainly would be German where German terroritory is, or if Polish then the official name at the time of 1939, not one out of 1990 I'm the last person who's gonna start a discussion on who owns what city name. Let's leave that crap to youtube comments (where people seriously fight for pages over who's ancestor Spartacus was...). I just want the game to give me a feeling of having a real contemporary map available.

My biggest beef with german/polish cities wasn't even that a Polish name or a German name was used, but rather that it wasn't consistent. Either we say "If a German name exists, then we'll use it" or not. It makes no sense to call a city "Danzig" while the city clearly wasn't German at the time, but at the same time give cities that German Generals would have a German name for (Guderian especially, since he was born in the region when it was still German) Polish names and especially not for cities that in fact were German at the time.

So consistency would be prudent and I think any city that was part of Germany in 1914 should have its German name used. Not because of any "historical rigth" to the city name or such crap, but simply because if this was the case, then that would be the name that German Generals would have had on their maps, because most of them simply still knew these cities by their German name.

Also, where Warsaw and such cities are concerend, I'd really prefer to see either the local name "Warszawa" or the German name if there existed one (since we do play the Germans, and they'd have called the city Warschau and Moskau, e.g. I'd actually prefer the local names for cities that never were German. But having so many Polish, Russian, French etc cities in there, and then see English names like Warsaw and Moscow in there... that just doesn't fit. Might be a nod to the biggest target audience of this game but... really... anybody playing a game like this will be able to understand what Warszawa and Moskwa (no I don't want Kyrillic here ) means. But ah well... just my 2 cents

Danzig is an interesting point as it had two official names

Anyhow since we agree on using the German names, let me just comment on the English ones - they aren't consistent, but I think they are needed. This is not a very "hardcore" game, it is highly accessible to anyone, regardless of their knowledge of history or geography, I guess there are players for whom those names are a useful familiar point of reference.

Speaking of that, I'm really perplexed by the scenario name "Piątek" I have never met with the battle of Bzura, or any part of it being referred to in this way... this is rather confusing for me.

PS. have you thought of writing an AAR? I think this might be interesting

[KeldorKatarn]

I might do one. But I've played through all of 39-41 already (I need to get those critique posts up to my playing ), so I could maybe do AARs of GC 42
I agree about bad naming for the Battle of the Bzura. But on the other hand, most maps are named after Cities, not rivers or battles...

[borsook79]

I might do one. But I've played through all of 39-41 already (I need to get those critique posts up to my playing ), so I could maybe do AARs of GC 42
I agree about bad naming for the Battle of the Bzura. But on the other hand, most maps are named after Cities, not rivers or battles...

Then maybe it should be Kutno? I don't know, most battle in history are named after cities, but this one wasn't and that's that.

[KeldorKatarn]

considering that we have the Kampinoska Forest in there too, this should probably Bzura yes. Also what about Battle of Tuchola Forest better name for Danzig North probably

[zappel]

Just a minor observation from Lillehammer:
- there are some sea-hex in the lake: [7, 7], [7, 8], [7, 9] and [10, 10]
- the no-named-river don't flow into the lake [7, 12]