Pikes vs. Spears (parallel to Beta forum thread)

[rtaylor]

I'd reply to this in the Beta forum, but I can't post there.

Leuctra is a problem that besets all Ancient wargames rules designs. A simplistic approach (giving extra deep hoplites an extra factor) does not work because by making 1 historical battle work correctly, you will make the vast majority of historical battles work incorrectly.

If you give such a definite advantage for deep formations, all wargamers will form up their hoplites extra deep all the time to get this benefit. This would not be realistic.

In fact FoG does reward the deep formation, for the reasons stated above, but also because additional BGs placed behind the front battle groups will provide rear support and thus further enhance the prospect of victory against a 2-deep enemy.

And it is not true that Epaminondas knew that his tactic would win the battle - not having a set of wargames rules to work from, there was no way he could know this until he tried it. He hoped it would win, and in the event it did. However, even in the light of the historical battle result we don't know that it was a guaranteed winner. Unfortunately, if rules make it a guaranteed winner, wargamers will do it all the time, which would not be a realistic representation of typical hoplite warfare.

The extra rank to absorb casualties and the possibility of avoiding the -1 on the CT are sufficient. These are significant advantages. Enough so that the deep formation has odds in its favour, but allowing room for tactical factors such as generals and overlaps to be important. If you repesent the 'deep' formation by another BG behind, there is also a rear support CT factor.

So, in FoG you can have insurance against death rolls via a deep formation or insurance against CTs via rear support, but not both without severely reducing your frontage. But could it be argued -- historically, not necessarily in game terms -- that the deep formation at Leuctra provided its own rear support? Is the deep formation in FoG terms a 3+ deep hoplite BG with another hoplite BG providing rear support?

[hammy]

I would think that the best way of representing the 50 deep Theban formation would be with two BG's one behind the other, the first three ranks deep and the second (possibly smaller one) providing rear support. This would mean that the front BG would need to lose more than 1/3 of it's numbers before losing any combat power and be rolling all it's cohesion tests at +1 which is a significant edge.

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

You also need to remember that Leuctra was probably an extension of an existing trend by the Thebans to deepen the phalanx. Thucydides' account of the battle of Delium (424 BC) refers to 25 shields deep (although IIRC there is a little debate about whether this actually means ranks deep). Note that Wikipedia talks about the Boiotian formation as a whole being 25 deep but this is a distortion - Thucydides actually talks about the Thebans being 25 shields deep and the rest 'as they pleased'. The Athenians formed a eight deep. The hoplites on each side were roughly equal i.e. 7000 so the implication is that to match the lines some of the other Boiotian contingents probably had shallower lines (although the totality of the lines including the cavalry did not come into action owing to watercourses.

The Theban wing did win at Delium but it was not automatic - Thucydides notes that the Thebans forces back their opponents at first gradually. In fact the victory was won more by the morale effect of the appearance of the flank move by the Theban horse than the defeat of one Athenian wing (the other had been successful).

{Thuc. book 4, 89ff.}

Regards

[malekithau]

I'd be tempted to class the Thebans in this battle as pikes to get this effect. Remember that Phillip apparently got the idea for the deep phalanx from his time in Thebes.

[neilhammond]

Philip may have got the idea of deep formations from the Thebans, but I'm not aware of any evidence that suggests that Theban's weren't hoplites.

I think the rules as they stand cater for hoplites in deep formation beating a shallower formation of hoplites, given time. It's not guaranteed, but the balance of probability is with the deeper formation.