Consultation: Patching the naval game

[FOARP]

I like the idea of the German convoys in the North Sea. I actually tried to mod the game to do that, but I couldn't get the Entente AI to go after the convoys.

I think to make your idea work, you also need to add more BB units to the force pools. The powers ought not to all have a single BB unit.

Another way to implement it would be to designate a hex between the Shetlands and Norway as the blockade hex (immune from submarine attack; subject only to surface attack). To stop the German convoy, the Entente would have to keep a CA or a BB in that hex. If the Germans could destroy the Entente blockader, the convoys would start running again.

My reasoning is that if you follow your suggestion about the British needing to keep a certain level of strength vis-a-vis the Germans in the North Sea, you can game it. What's to stop the Germans from building additional units and parking them right off their own coast? The Germans could have built 100 Dreadnoughts, but if they kept them in the Jade they would have ZERO impact on what was happening further north where the British implemented their blockade.

Basically it's impossible for the CP to make that kind of investment without first winning the land-battle. More to the point, if Germany really did have a larger number of dreadnoughts, a fleet-in-being like that would deter Entente interception of their convoys even without a battle. A count of the battleship units on either side therefore looks like a good mechanism for triggering/un-triggering a blocade of the CP because it forces the weaker side to either build up or attack the opposition and hope to inflict greater casualties on them than they suffer in return.

The essential situation of WW1 was that the Entente powers could out-wait the Central Powers as long as the front in Western Europe held firm. Conversely the only way the CP could win was either by gaining freedom of the seas through victory on land, or by placing a similar strangle-hold on the Entente powers.

[Myrddraal]

Also, remember that if the CP does just build up a huge fleet which never leaves port, the Entente player will easily intercept all the convoys, so the blockade will still effectively be in place.

[FOARP]

Also, remember that if the CP does just build up a huge fleet which never leaves port, the Entente player will easily intercept all the convoys, so the blockade will still effectively be in place.

The problem is that continually intercepting convoys which stupidly set out for Germany for 118 turns would be a total drag, and Germany does not need the PP boost that would come from convoys if it has already beaten the Entente on the high seas. Much better to abstract the whole thing as a periodic NM malus for the CP that continues as long as the Entente have superiority on the seas.

[Myrddraal]

and Germany does not need the PP boost that would come from convoys if it has already beaten the Entente on the high seas

You're right, this is a balance issue we may need to address.

Having said that, there is a benefit in representing convoys consistently throughout the game. It would seem odd that Entente convoys are represented one way and CP convoys another. Perhaps a solution would be to make CP convoys relatively scarce and only carrying small PP boosts, but have special events that give the CP morale boosts each time a convoy reaches port.

[FOARP]

and Germany does not need the PP boost that would come from convoys if it has already beaten the Entente on the high seas

You're right, this is a balance issue we may need to address.

Having said that, there is a benefit in representing convoys consistently throughout the game. It would seem odd that Entente convoys are represented one way and CP convoys another. Perhaps a solution would be to make CP convoys relatively scarce and only carrying small PP boosts, but have special events that give the CP morale boosts each time a convoy reaches port.

But then you still have to go through the chore of parking your battleships near where the German convoys appear and wiping them out every time they appear. Historically this isn't what happened anyway - the German Merchant Navy were very quickly bottled up in neutral ports and almost never tried to slip through.

Realistically, there were no CP convoys outside of the Baltic/Kattegat, and the Central Powers suffered greatly from the blocade. The Entente suffered from the U-Boat threat and did run convoys in the Atlantic/North Sea. The only thing that would change this is the CP gaining superiority on the seas - but at this point, for simple game-balance reasons, there's just no point giving them convoys. The lack of a mechanism modelling the problems the blocade caused the Central Powers (above all, the fact that it meant that the Entente could out-wait the CP) is a problem, not the lack of CP convoys, and the easiest way of reprenting this is a steady decline in NM as the blocade continues.

In the long term maybe a more complicated strategic warfare mechanism for convoys would make more sense - that is, you have to invest resources to build them the same way you do AP, and there can never be more convoys on the map than you have built. For each country there would be a maximum number of convoys (i.e., the maximum number you now see on the map at any one time). Running low on convoys means goods just can't be delivered.

For Germany, the starting size of the merchant marine would be small and so would the maximum amount, an event would fire early on 'turning off' their Atlantic/North Sea convoys so long as the Entente had more battleships, and would only turn them back on again if the Entente battleships became fewer than the CP ones.

[Myrddraal]

Just to be clear, the proposed mechanic will ensure that no German convoys spawn unless the German naval strength in the North Sea is 1.5x the Entente naval strength, so you won't have the chore of chasing doomed merchant convoys - convoys will only spawn when the German fleet has a serious chance of protecting its convoys.

We could combine that with an additional morale penalty which grows as the blockade continues, but I'm not sure it's not hard enough for the CP as it is...

[Jonathan_Pollard]

As I've already mentioned in another thread, I think it's extremely unrealistic to allow armored trains to perform amphibious invasions on hexes that have a railroad.

[FOARP]

Just to be clear, the proposed mechanic will ensure that no German convoys spawn unless the German naval strength in the North Sea is 1.5x the Entente naval strength, so you won't have the chore of chasing doomed merchant convoys - convoys will only spawn when the German fleet has a serious chance of protecting its convoys.

We could combine that with an additional morale penalty which grows as the blockade continues, but I'm not sure it's not hard enough for the CP as it is...

But on the flip-side, convoys for Germany makes the game easier for the CP, and if the CP can also enforce a blocade on the Entente, then it's actually a fairly even-handed mechanism.

It's good to see that the German convoys will be triggered by event - but I'm a bit concerned that the trigger may lead to yo-yoing between blocaded/not blocaded based solely on where the warships are (i.e., sending German warships into the North Seas will flip it one way and sending them back into the Baltic will flip it the other way). It also seems to be a bit gamey - it seems silly for the Germans to receive convoys just because they managed to temporarily get the Brits to send most of their warships out of the North Sea into e.g., the Atlantic when actually the Brits are overall much stronger. I'd prefer something triggered by overall strength in battleships between the CP and the Entente - sure, this means that factors outside the Atlantic/North Sea become involved, but it means that one side must keep up superiority.

Of course, the AI will also have to know how to handle this mechanism.

[julian239]

Just to be clear, the proposed mechanic will ensure that no German convoys spawn unless the German naval strength in the North Sea is 1.5x the Entente naval strength, so you won't have the chore of chasing doomed merchant convoys - convoys will only spawn when the German fleet has a serious chance of protecting its convoys.

We could combine that with an additional morale penalty which grows as the blockade continues, but I'm not sure it's not hard enough for the CP as it is...

But on the flip-side, convoys for Germany makes the game easier for the CP, and if the CP can also enforce a blocade on the Entente, then it's actually a fairly even-handed mechanism.

It's good to see that the German convoys will be triggered by event - but I'm a bit concerned that the trigger may lead to yo-yoing between blocaded/not blocaded based solely on where the warships are (i.e., sending German warships into the North Seas will flip it one way and sending them back into the Baltic will flip it the other way). It also seems to be a bit gamey - it seems silly for the Germans to receive convoys just because they managed to temporarily get the Brits to send most of their warships out of the North Sea into e.g., the Atlantic when actually the Brits are overall much stronger. I'd prefer something triggered by overall strength in battleships between the CP and the Entente - sure, this means that factors outside the Atlantic/North Sea become involved, but it means that one side must keep up superiority.

Of course, the AI will also have to know how to handle this mechanism.

That sounds like a good solution and I do not see the danger that it overpowers the CP, since building such a fleet would severly hamper their land war. (somebody on the matrix forum tried it).

There should be an counter since it is unrealistic that scrapping/building fleets would happen in secrecy (see above post).

[impulse101lehr]

- Simulate the blockade of German ports
At the start of the game, Germany would have convoys, just like France & Britain. When Britain first attacks a German convoy (usually within the first few turns of the game), a historical event would appear saying ‘Germany’s ports blockaded!’ ‘Britain has intercepted merchant shipping heading for German ports. No more merchant convoys will sail for Germany until the British hold on the North Sea is weakened’.
If entente naval power in the north sea then drops to less than half of German naval power, Germany’s convoys would be ‘re-activated’ and convoys would spawn for Germany.

This is a great idea. My only question though, why stop the convoys? Why not have Germany's new convoy behave exactly like Britain's? Just make the RN keep sinking them as they appear, just like the German U-boats do for the entire game (provided they get naval superiority). Seems like that would save you guys some time.