General Question.

Legate71 · Post by **Legate71** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:44 am

Been working on a couple of armies for WMA by GW, and have recently been looking for any excuse to drop GW and I think FoG will fit the bill. I have some questions first.

The above mentioned armies are in 6mm (Baccus.) I see that the rules do accomadate this scale, and that the bases should be the same as those for 15mm figs, but the size for those bases is not listed. What is the measurment for these bases?

Also, the teaser Early Rep. Roman army list on the site lists the forces as 4x Hastati, 4x Italian troops, etc. I take that to mean 4 bases of said troop types correct?

How would a WMA ancients army consisting of
-1 General
-1 Tribune
-2 Units Triarii
-5 Units Hastati/Princ.
-1 Unit Roman Hvy Cavalry
-1 Unit Regular Cavalry
-1 Unit Mtd Skirmishers
-2 Units Allied (Socii) Infantry

Note: Unit=3 stands of troops.

Stack up point wise in FoG. Basically trying to figure out if I need more troops, and if so how many.

Thanks.

Empgamer · Post by **Empgamer** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:07 am

Bit pushed for time so this will be a bit basic I'm afraid.

Hastati/principes are based on 40mm x 15mm bases (4 figs in 15 mm) and can be arrayed in a variety of battle group (BG) sizes. Mine are in groups of 4 and I have 8 of them for a 2 legion (e.g. 2 Roman and 2 ally) army. That's 32 bases of hastati/principes (but this is for 1,000 points). FOG does not differentiate between hastati/principes as such.

Triarii are based the same and are allowed at the rate of 1 base per 4 bases of hastati/principes.

Commands - you will likely need 3-4 I suspect. I use 4 (above 800 points). One will be the C in C, and the rest sub cds (a mid ability C in C and 2 basic sub commanders will be 120 points).

Roman cavalry are based in groups of three on 40 x 30mm. I use two BGs of 4 (in any size army).

Velites based on 40mm x 20mm in 2s. I have 16 stands of them. 1 allowed per 2 hastati/principes.

Early Republican does not have heavy cavalry distinction. They will all be just cavalry. Get's distinguished in late list.

Rep Romans can take up to 12 stands of Italian allied foot AND 4 bases of those as extraordinarii. In addition, you can take up to 8 bases of (I generally use one type) of 'optional' troops (e.g. thureophoroi/scutarii/Gauls).

They can take Numidian light cavalry if that's what you are referring to but that will count as part of your 8.

The Romans can also take allies but we will need the lists to examine that more closely.

Points wise a starter game of around 600 points is recommended. Roughly

1 x C in C
2 x sub commanders
16 bases hastati etc
4 bases triarii
8 bases velites
8 cav
8 bases Italian foot (I use Oscan javelin based a med foot).

This is all assuming beta list is unchanged.

Legate71 · Post by **Legate71** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:56 am

Thanks mate!

Assuming no chagnes from beta this should be easily do-able. Given that convention the resources I have will give me;
-1 General
-2 Tribunes (i'll have to put together another command stand, but I have the figs for it.)
-16 bases Legion (WMA designation)- I'll have to repaint the plums on 1 of the Triarii stands.
-4 bases Triarii
-8 bases Velites
-8 bases of Cavalry ( based slightly differnet to id WMA class)
-6 bases Italian foot- only place I come up short without any ready re enforcements.

Good, a Baccus 6mm 1000 pt army pack seems to port over rather smoothly to a FoG starter army.

Basing is somewhat off a bit. WMA uses a 40x20 system, but I do not think that should throw things off too drastically.

Looks like I have found a replacement Ancients game.

Empgamer · Post by **Empgamer** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:11 am

FOG is more concerned with frontages than depths. 40 x 20 should be fine. It's only WMA shock cav etc that would be out of kilter I suspect but even that is do-able. I imagine you'd need to stand two bases of WMA based shock cav side by side and class them as one FOG base behind the other. Does limit their deployment option a little. FOG is very flexible re basing and just uses DBx convention as its norm given the popularity of it I suspect.

The Italian allied could be any allied infantry not fighting/equipped in legion style, so anything 'non legion' is likely to fit the bill. You could also use 8 bases of either Gauls, scutarii or thureophoroi instead. You could also utilise 4 bases of Numidian/skirmish (light) cavalry as 50% of your non-legion 'optional' troop allowance. At 600 points you'd likely need another 4 stands of the other foot troop types mentioned.

The commands are based on 40mm wide stands to any depth that suits. You must be able to tell them apart though. I use 40x40 for all mine and the C in C generally has a few more figures on his 'diorama' than the subs (e.g. mounted officer, standard, foot officer and standard etc).

BG sizes for hastati etc can be 4-8, for triarii, 2-4.

I think I must have most of the ancients rules ever published. This is a breath of fresh air!!!!!!

Legate71 · Post by **Legate71** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:20 pm

The WMA Roman Hvy Cav are not rated as "shock" troops so mine are based as the other troops in he army. So, that will not be a problem.

I will be filling out the ranks in the future. Still painting a Punic Army up now...I'm not a fast painter by any means. I've been painting infantry for the better part of the year now. Also, working on a couple of WWII armies at the same time. So, once I get finished, and after I have paid for an up coming vacation I will be ordering more troops.

Legate71 · Post by **Legate71** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:14 pm

If anyone know (and can say.) What is the basing convention for Punic War Elephants in the 15mm- (6mm) range?

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:19 pm

15mm bases for elephants are 40mm x 40mm. The number of 6mm models per base would be up to you.

Cheers,
Scott

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:25 pm

Legate71 wrote:If anyone know (and can say.) What is the basing convention for Punic War Elephants in the 15mm- (6mm) range?

40mm x 40mm.

Normally one elephant in 15mm scale, but in smaller scales use as many as you like and as will fit.

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:12 pm

This is not a big deal, but I thought I would ask. I am basing all my figures up now, I have always thought that elephants look naff on a 40 X 40 base and had some rather nice 30 X 50 bases (15mm elephants)

I guess no one cares about the 50mm depth aspect?

Now from a game point of view is it viable to just play a 2 elephant unit on 30mm wide bases and pretend they are 40mm wide, or will it make life difficult? I can put a fake 40mm wide base underneath them for the game if i need too....

Andy

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:11 pm

For a friendly game I don't see a big problem but for a tournament I would go with a fake 40mm base.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:29 am

miffedofreading wrote:This is not a big deal, but I thought I would ask. I am basing all my figures up now, I have always thought that elephants look naff on a 40 X 40 base and had some rather nice 30 X 50 bases (15mm elephants)

I guess no one cares about the 50mm depth aspect?

Now from a game point of view is it viable to just play a 2 elephant unit on 30mm wide bases and pretend they are 40mm wide, or will it make life difficult? I can put a fake 40mm wide base underneath them for the game if i need too....

You can put a sabot base underneath no problem.

In FoG the depth of the base will not be a problem except maybe if the elephants rout

madaxeman · Post by **madaxeman** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:08 am

If you are using them regularly for FoG & WMA I'd think having them on the 20x40 short-frontage bases for WMA, and using 4 bases together to create a 2-base (4 elephant) unit for FoG was the way to go. I've got some 6mm elephants (Irregular though, not Baccus) on 20x40 and they look OK to me.

30x50 might look the best, but its not going to be right for either ruleset and you will end up spacing them out for FoG, or overlapping them for WMA

Tim
www.madaxeman.com

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:47 pm

If I like FOG then I will use them with that, otherwise I will use them as miniatures in Commands and Colors ancients, that is what I started painting and basing them for. Base size is of course irrelevant in that game

I'll just add a card spacer on the bottom for now.

Legate71 · Post by **Legate71** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:20 pm

Now that we have the Romans sorted out, more-or-less next up is my Punic Army. Just converted the list over from WMA and I think it gives me;
-12 bases North African Infantry
-3 bases Gallic Inf.
-6 bases of Skirmishers
-3 bases Hvy Cav
-6 bases Numidian Lt Cav
-3 bases Elephants

Should also give 1 C-n-C, and at least 2 Sub-commanders.

Any suggestions for this force? Is there a difference between HVY and LT Cav with this list?

willb · Post by **willb** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:45 pm

not exactly relevant as such, but the ancient tactical manuals give a frontage of 48 feet per elephant. at 15mm scale that would be about 120 mm per elephant figure. both the seleucids and ptolemys had 40 to 50 infantry escorts per elephant and others may have also. so if you mount them on 40mm bases you could include a few light infantry skirmisher figures on each base. this also works with one 6mm elephant on a 40mm base.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:26 pm

Legate71 wrote:Now that we have the Romans sorted out, more-or-less next up is my Punic Army. Just converted the list over from WMA and I think it gives me;
-12 bases North African Infantry
-3 bases Gallic Inf.
-6 bases of Skirmishers
-3 bases Hvy Cav
-6 bases Numidian Lt Cav
-3 bases Elephants

Should also give 1 C-n-C, and at least 2 Sub-commanders.

Any suggestions for this force? Is there a difference between HVY and LT Cav with this list?

Well the big issue is bases need to be in even multiples. And in general you need a lot more.

Legate71 · Post by **Legate71** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:48 pm

More or less looking for the Punic counter to the below Roman Army ( as per the sample on the site ie Battle of Trebia; )

-1 General
-2 Tribunes
-16 bases Legion
-4 bases Triarii
-8 bases Velites
-8 bases of Cavalry
-6 bases Italian foot.

-1 General
-2 Leaders
-12 bases North African Infantry
-4 bases Gallic Inf.
-6 bases of Skirmishers
-4 bases Hvy Cav
-6 bases Numidian Lt Cav
-6 bases Elephants

Suggestions?

shall · Post by **shall** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:02 pm

Dropping to 4 Elephants and add more gallic foot as follows seems a better representation

1 General
-2 Tribunes
-16 bases Legion - 4BGs of 4
-4 bases Triarii
-8 bases Velites
-8 bases of Cavalry - 2 BGs of 4
-6 bases Italian foot.

-1 General
-2 Leaders
-12 bases North African Infantry - 2 BG of 6
- 12 bases Gallic Inf. 2 BGs of 6
-6 bases of Skirmishers
-4 bases Hvy Cav
-6 bases Numidian Lt Cav
-4 bases Elephants 2Bgs of 2

Si

Legate71 · Post by **Legate71** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:40 pm

shall wrote:Dropping to 4 Elephants and add more gallic foot as follows seems a better representation

1 General
-2 Tribunes
-16 bases Legion - 4BGs of 4
-4 bases Triarii
-8 bases Velites
-8 bases of Cavalry - 2 BGs of 4
-6 bases Italian foot.

-1 General
-2 Leaders
-12 bases North African Infantry - 2 BG of 6
- 12 bases Gallic Inf. 2 BGs of 6
-6 bases of Skirmishers
-4 bases Hvy Cav
-6 bases Numidian Lt Cav
-4 bases Elephants 2Bgs of 2

Si

Thanks for the idea. When I place the order for the books, I'll order the extra infantry.

One other question. I think it is general enough to be answered on the forum. In WMA there is a class of Punic Infantry rated as Veteran, basically the elite of the Carthaginian army. Is there a similar unit for this list in FoG?

shall · Post by **shall** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:38 pm

Hannibals Veteran AFrican are classififed as Superior Offensive Spear IIRC - in limited numbers

Si