Feedback so far

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Kerensky
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Feedback so far

Post by Kerensky »

Thanks to all of our awesome testers for your feedback! As always, it has been immensely helpful.

BETA 2 should be coming up soon(hopefully this weekend), and with it comes the final 5 scenarios that represent the historical end to DLC 1945. Be sure to check them out and leave feedback! We especially need good feedback on "Ruhr Pocket" and "End on the Elbe", because these scenarios have some fairly complex triggers going on that we want to make sure are working 100%

There are no changes to the base game files (such as equipment file) at this time, we are still mulling over those changes.

Also, the Battle of the Bulge scenarios seem to be pretty rock solid which is great, but we would still like some more feedback on the late scenarios of the fictional end to the campaign. Dunkirk 45 should work properly now, and it would help us a lot to get more feedback on the Antwerp, Brussels, Dunkirk 45, and Sealion 45 scenarios.

Again, thanks for all of your contributions, I know its a lot of content to go through in this DLC with it being extra large and also having new types of units as well! :D
Kamerer
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
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Re: Feedback so far

Post by Kamerer »

Are there changes in beta 2 to the Liege-SeaLion path that warrant replaying it?
Kerensky
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Re: Feedback so far

Post by Kerensky »

Changelog

Last 5 scenarios representing the historical end to DLC 45 West are in.
Various text corrections.
Added 1 turn to La Gleize
Added 2 turns to Houffalize
Added 1 turn to Bastogne Siege
Raised some prestige rewards slightly for early scenarios
Added 3 turns to Antwerp
Bray-Dunes is named correctly and no longer a port
Fixed broken victory triggers on Dunkirk 45
Kamerer
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Re: Feedback so far

Post by Kamerer »

Thank you for that. Good changes I think. I look forward to replaying the "victory" path later. I have just about finished the historical path; it is good and well-crafted.

This DLC is the most "polished" of any in the west as it came to Beta. Nicely done. Experience shows in that, and also in tying the narrative and historical battle together. While in the past the history was accurate, here the story and scenarios are better integrated and feel so much more natural. Nicely done.

Here are some equipment comments I was adding to my "Death on the Elbe" comments, I'll copy them over here though I am not quite done thinking them through. I'll toss them out for fodder if you will consider them as such:

Equipment comments:
  • • The Go229 is under-rated. Air-to-air, it is little different than an Me262 (vs an Me262, it is +2 damage, -1 defense, else the same as far as air to air). What very few contemporary comments exist, point to it being superior to the Me262 in dogfighting. I’d give it two more initiative points (17 total) and two more defense points. I don't know enough about the weapons system it carried to evaluate it as to air damage points. But head-to-head and historically, it feels slightly under-rated.
    • The initiative ratings on the last generation American prop aircraft are a bit unrealistic in my opinion – giving the P51H the same initiative rating as an Me262 or Go229 feels very wrong. Yes, it was a very refined aircraft vs. the earlier models, but it was still a prop, a Mustang (a very over-rated aircraft in the first place), and carried the same armament as the D model. This also makes the American reinforcement wave in Sea Lion wildly effective beyond what it should be, I think. I need to go back and look closely at the P47N but I think it may be a bit up-sold, too.
    • It feels very wrong that Soviet and US troops share recon/spotting in the Elbe scenario. It’s as if they were under the same tactical control. E.g., a Soviet recon unit is in contact with your forces, calls in American air support to attack it. This was the same thing that really marred the Warsaw scenario in DLC '44East, for example - that was a great scenario but flawed by the Polish resistance/US air force close cooperation. Huh? I don’t know if there’s any way to fix it given game mechanics, but it is something that detracts from the game.
ThvN
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Re: Feedback so far

Post by ThvN »

Thanks for the changelog, I see that it's not really necessary to replay the earlier scenarios right now, so I hope to continue with the new historic path, after I finish the fictional one. Although I hate amphibious operations.


Some impressions and comments on the new toys (units), since I've finally tried out the Amerikabomber:

V1 and V2: very nice addition, not overpowered but still effective, V2 seems rather slow in flight though. The're free, fast and go boom, so I'm happy.

Arado Ar 234B: works as advertised, good soft attack, and fairly survivable. Its naval attack might be set a little higher, though. A good indication that it is fairly well balanced was that I hesitated a lot between the Arado and the Do 335 when upgrading my Me 410.

Arado E-555I Amerikabomber: A very effective unit. Probably too good and/or too cheap. I bought one for Dunkirk45 and it gained 277 experience during the battle. I might have gotten lucky but the AI didn't seem to want to attack it with fighters, although it was very popular as a target for AAA.

Gotha Go 229: Very powerful but not invincible, it has very impressive ground attack values and very good range. Feels more like a fighter-bomber (it was conceived as a bomber, actually), but since the tactical bomber category already gained the Arado, the fighter category is probably best.


Speaking of planes, two things (anomalies) caught my eye:

The 'SE' Bf 109K still only has 36 fuel, while the regular was changed into 56.

The Ta 152H should be in the 'Focke' unit series, since it was a straightforward evolution of the Fw 190D-9, with the same engine. Actually, engineering-wise the step from the Fw 190A to the Fw 190D was a bigger one than from the Fw 190D to the Ta 152.

This would provide players with a cheap late-war upgrade to their Focke Wulfs, because now the choice between upgrading such airplanes to either a Ta 152H (costs 635) or a Me 262A (costs 713) is a no-brainer. The Me 262 will be cheaper in the long run as it will have fewer losses. But if one would have to spend less than 40 prestige to upgrade to a Ta 152H instead of 635, it will become a more interesting option.
ThvN
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Re: Feedback so far

Post by ThvN »

Kamerer wrote:The Go229 is under-rated. Air-to-air, it is little different than an Me262 (vs an Me262, it is +2 damage, -1 defense, else the same as far as air to air). What very few contemporary comments exist, point to it being superior to the Me262 in dogfighting. I’d give it two more initiative points (17 total) and two more defense points. I don't know enough about the weapons system it carried to evaluate it as to air damage points. But head-to-head and historically, it feels slightly under-rated.

The initiative ratings on the last generation American prop aircraft are a bit unrealistic in my opinion – giving the P51H the same initiative rating as an Me262 or Go229 feels very wrong. Yes, it was a very refined aircraft vs. the earlier models, but it was still a prop, a Mustang (a very over-rated aircraft in the first place), and carried the same armament as the D model. This also makes the American reinforcement wave in Sea Lion wildly effective beyond what it should be, I think. I need to go back and look closely at the P47N but I think it may be a bit up-sold, too.
The proposed air-to-air armament would most likely have been two MK108 30mm cannon, same armament as the Me163, and the Me262 had four of those cannon. But armament is only part of the attack value. BTW, balancing values to strike a nice compromise between historical accuracy and gameplay is always difficult, I can mod things myself to my taste but it will never be good for everyone.

And I can't resist asking, years ago I did some research for a mod into this Gotha/Horten thing, are you referring to the alleged mock dogfight between the Go229 and a Me262? Or the comments and calculations by the designers on how it compared to an Me262? Since I will probably end up modding this thing in PzC as well I've dug up my old sources, but I am hoping more info has surfaced in recent years.

So I'm really interested to know if you have some links to these contemporary comments, because I've never found any really credible evidence myself, even with the renewed interest in this aircraft during the years. All I could find was some off-hand comment by one of the test pilots, Ziller, who was killed in a crash in the prototype. And these comments were only mentioned by the Horten brothers while they were being interviewed in the 1980ies. The only sources I could find (and I've managed to find the link for you, maybe you are already familiar with it), point to several explanations for the stories about the Go229's dogfighting capabilities.

http://airandspace.si.edu/research/arch ... sec_9.html

My 2 cents: The Go229 had a low wing loading. The Me262 by contrast used a very high wing loading. Completely different characteristics, each with its own advantages/disadvantages. The Gotha was conceived as a bomber (the 1000x1000x1000 criterium), and was never tested with military equipment. No guns, gunsights, armor etc. It was never tested to full capacity, most performance parameters are estimates, so all of these are dificult to compare to the Me262.

And the (proposed) layout of the Gotha leads me to believe that is would likely suffer from 'gun gas ingestion', which was a problem with several post-war jet-fighters with their gun muzzles in the vicinity of the air intakes. But now I'm starting to speculate, so I'll leave it at that.

And this beta won't play itself... :mrgreen:
mrgolf
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Re: Feedback so far

Post by mrgolf »

The '45 Beta is very interesting to play, and it is bug free so far for me, but I have a couple of design complaints/criticisms on it. My biggest question is: where in the heck is the American AF in the siege of Bastogne and all previous Bulge scenarios?! Also, weather is too good early on. Can fly most days. Ridiculous. It's wonderful to have the skies all to myself as the Germans, but it is not, as you know, anywhere close to realistic. If the weather is good enough for the almost decimated Luftwaffe to fly in, why is the American AF not challenging them? Where are they, watching movies?!
Kamerer
2nd Lieutenant - Elite Panzer IVF/2
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Re: Feedback so far

Post by Kamerer »

ThvN wrote:
And I can't resist asking, years ago I did some research for a mod into this Gotha/Horten thing, are you referring to the alleged mock dogfight between the Go229 and a Me262? Or the comments and calculations by the designers on how it compared to an Me262? Since I will probably end up modding this thing in PzC as well I've dug up my old sources, but I am hoping more info has surfaced in recent years.
No, no other sources, just extrapolating from them. And with the low wing loading and speed, if that plane had been made operational it would have been in a league of it's own. Put in Cold War terms, it would have had the speed of a Thud and the maneuverability of a MiG-21.
Longasc
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Re: Feedback so far

Post by Longasc »

I couldn't contribute at all, but just wanted to say reading this makes me eager to start a complete DLC playthrough once this gets released. :)
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