Premature Finnish Armistice bug

[Ironclad]

Playing the Axis I have just had Finland declaring an armistice on turn 29 November 1941. The circumstances which I think triggered it (incorrectly) were as follows.

An Axis concentration on central and southern Russia left Russia in possession of the Estonian cities of Talinn and Tartu. The Leningrad front remained in stalemate but further east three Finnish corps supported by one German had pushed the Russians back and were positioned outside Finnish territory near to the Russian city of Petrozarvsdsk and another Finnish corps was pursuing a Russian partisan furthet north also in Russian territory. The success of the Finns meant that there were less than 6 Axis units left within the boundaries of Finland proper - the three facing Leningrad, one in Helsinki and the air unit so presumably this with the two cities in Russian hands triggered the conditions prematurely.

Morale of the tale is until this bug is corrected be more successful as Germany pushing north or don't be as successful as Finland pushing south-east!

Edit: LOL my German corps wasn't returned to me because it wasn't in Finland - instead its now out of supply in Russian territory

[GogTheMild]

That sounds like an unintended consequence to me. I'm not sure how you would program round it though. Maybe make it so that one of the cities has to be in Finland?

[joerock22]

I suppose this rule could be changed, but if you think about it, it really only becomes a factor when the Axis focus on a southern Barbarossa strategy. For example, see the following thread, about halfway down the page.

http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 6&start=20

So if Finland knows that most of its ally Germany's troops are hundreds of miles away in the Ukraine, doesn't that make it more likely that they would accept an armistice? Remember that they were just beaten in the Winter War. They were forced to cede territory to the USSR, and they joined the Axis primarily to reverse that defeat. Faced with the prospect of fighting the USSR again, basically alone (with German forces concentrated in the south), the Finns would have to consider an armistice. Finland was a small country with a small army, good at fighting defensively on its own soil. They would never have gone to war with the USSR again unless they thought Germany would lend substantial support close to the Finnish borders. The Germans did this historically, quickly overrunning Estonia and nearly capturing Leningrad. If the Axis player chooses to ignore the north instead, then maybe Finland decides to back out of the deal instead of facing the USSR alone in the north. It's at least plausible.

Bottom line: the Finnish armistice is very easy for the Axis to avoid. Either conquer the cities in Estonia that are very close, or keep 6 units inside Finland. If you know the rule, you can only be victimized if you are careless.

[Ironclad]

Did the development team mean the armistice to be triggered in such circumstances as occurred in this game? If that is the case then it would be helpful to amend the manual to make that clear. Obviously if I had known that offensive Finnish action into Russian territory supported by the German corps present would lead to this I wouldn't have moved them out of Finland until I had taken the two cities or would have limited the number of units committed to ensure at least 6 remained in Finland.

[trulster]

Better option is to combine the <6 Axis in Finland with >X Russian units within Finnish borders. This way you avoid silly surrenders.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The easiest way to deal with this is to alter the numbers in general.txt

These are the current numbers:
/* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- */
/* Finnish armistice rules */
/* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- */
/* */
/* Requirements for making Finland sign an armistice with USSR. All must be met */
ALLIED_CITIES_IN_ESTONIA_FINLAND 2 /* Minimum number of cities required in Finland and Estonia */
AXIS_UNITS_IN_FINLAND 6 /* Less than this number of Axis units located in Finland */

Since the values were setup we have introduced rail depots and changed cities to rail depots. By doing so we added the rail depot of Tartu in Estonia.

Therefore it seems like a good idea to increase the value for:
ALLIED_CITIES_IN_ESTONIA_FINLAND 2 /* Minimum number of cities required in Finland and Estonia */

to either 3 or 4.

By doing that the Russians must control 1-2 cities / rail depots in Finland in addition to Tallinn and Tartu for the Finnish armistice to take place.

In the real war the Finns soon wanted to end the war once the Russians were capable of bombing Helsinki. Losing Estonia meant the Russians were very close to Helsinki from the Gulf of Finland.

I think a value of 3 is probably a good idea. That means the armistice will begin if Russia e. g. controls Joensuu, Tartu and Tallinn and the Axis have fewer than 6 units in Finland. If Tallinn is Axis controlled then the Russians need e. g. Kuopio.

Should we increase the value from 2 to 3? That should remove the situation described in this thread.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Better option is to combine the <6 Axis in Finland with >X Russian units within Finnish borders. This way you avoid silly surrenders.

Only counting the number of units doesn't work because the border is long and Russia can just ooze through the Axis lines to get enough units into Finland. They need to capture some cities / rail depots before the Finns will consider an armistice.

[JimR]

The easiest way to deal with this is to alter the numbers in general.txt

These are the current numbers:
/* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- */
/* Finnish armistice rules */
/* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- */
/* */
/* Requirements for making Finland sign an armistice with USSR. All must be met */
ALLIED_CITIES_IN_ESTONIA_FINLAND 2 /* Minimum number of cities required in Finland and Estonia */
AXIS_UNITS_IN_FINLAND 6 /* Less than this number of Axis units located in Finland */

Since the values were setup we have introduced rail depots and changed cities to rail depots. By doing so we added the rail depot of Tartu in Estonia.

Therefore it seems like a good idea to increase the value for:
ALLIED_CITIES_IN_ESTONIA_FINLAND 2 /* Minimum number of cities required in Finland and Estonia */

to either 3 or 4.

By doing that the Russians must control 1-2 cities / rail depots in Finland in addition to Tallinn and Tartu for the Finnish armistice to take place.

In the real war the Finns soon wanted to end the war once the Russians were capable of bombing Helsinki. Losing Estonia meant the Russians were very close to Helsinki from the Gulf of Finland.

I think a value of 3 is probably a good idea. That means the armistice will begin if Russia e. g. controls Joensuu, Tartu and Tallinn and the Axis have fewer than 6 units in Finland. If Tallinn is Axis controlled then the Russians need e. g. Kuopio.

Should we increase the value from 2 to 3? That should remove the situation described in this thread.

Yes, this change is worth considering to avoid an "accidental" or inappropriate Finnish armistice.

[GogTheMild]

I hadn't realised that the rail depot of Tartu counted as a 'city' . Yes, I think that changing the requirement to 3 would be appropriate. This would at least require the Russians to capture an actual Finnish city/rail depot before the Finns give in.