Commanded shot - how best to use it ?

[AlexandersChiefEunuch]

Apologies if this thread has already been dealt with elsewhere, I've had a brief look but didn't see anything which would fit the bill.

I am working up a list for a Later 30YW German army, and wonder what people's experience of using commanded shot is ?

What is the optimum ratio of CS to horse BGs, for instance ? It seems to me that in order to get the most out of the protection afforded
by the CS, they are best used on the internal flanks of horse BGs. By that I mean, if you have, say, a line of 3 Kurassiere BGs then the optimum
use of CS is to have one in each gap - so 2 CS for 3 horse BGs. Does having to keep the CS up with the horse unduly restrict the mounted's
manoeuvrability. Bearing this in mind, are CS generally good value ?

Is it worth while having just one commanded shot BG with 3 or 4 horse BGs ?

Any thoughts / suggestions on the use of commanded shot would be interesting to hear.

[madaxeman]

They are best thought of as troops who are useful/used to make rubbish horse better when used defensively

The textbook use of them seems to be with carbine armed horse, as the effect of adding in a sprinkling of commanded shot makes them as good if not better than enemy armoured cavaliers or even Cuirassiers.

The downside is that they move more slowly and cant really charge enemy horse, but if you use the combined formation defensively and try and encourage the enemy to charge you (which, if you are using a mix of carbine horse and shot, they kind of have to or they will just get shot) it works out OK.

Using them with Proper Cuirassiers or other decent horse is usually a waste, as they wont get to do their POA-boosting magic as often if they are supporting horse who are likely to be evens or better against most opponents anyway, or who will want to charge due to good impact factoos

[kevinj]

The other thing to remember is that adding commanded shot to a mounted formation greatly slows it down as you can then only make a maximum of 2 moves at 3 MU rather than 3 of 5 MU for an all horse division. As Tim says, the best use is to support worse horse in a defensive shooting formation. It's very strong frontally but (as ever) you need to protect your flanks as the formation is quite rigid.

[quackstheking]

However, if Lady Luck does go against you, you will very quickly lose the mounted and commanded shot BG's

I set up a 4 unit defensive wing (2 horse and 2 commanded shot) and very quickly lost 4 BG's to 2 Determined Horse!!

Don

[hood_mick]

One thing not so far answered is are they generally good value. They are excellent value at 16 points a battlegroup. Start your army list off by buying 3 BGs of them. They are also quite good at providing support (rear support) to mounted BGs as well.

[Three]

However, if Lady Luck does go against you, you will very quickly lose the mounted and commanded shot BG's

I set up a 4 unit defensive wing (2 horse and 2 commanded shot) and very quickly lost 4 BG's to 2 Determined Horse!!

Don

That's my predominant experience as well. You usually need 5s to hit with Carbines and the same with muskets of the CS and will be lucky to get in 2 turns of firing, I've only ever managed to get a shooting wing to work once (was nice when it happened though). My successes with them have always been when the crappy horse runs away and the CS head for rough going. Once there they seem to become very difficult to winkle out and can become a colossal pain for opponents.

[quackstheking]

They are also very vulnerable when left on their own if the cavalry they are supporting goes charging off.

I played a game where my opponant had 3 Commanded shot BG's where the cavalry had charged off. I targeted them with my artillery hitting on 5's and 6's. One hit is enough to make them take a test and already they are on -2 for the CT Usually they have no rear support or commander so need to roll a 9+ to pass - Once they fail they head down the Cohesion Ladder quickly - next hit they are on a -3 and soon are fragg'd. Usually players don't take a general away from the front line to help or bolster so it's not long before they run! They also take quite a while to manoevre out of arc!

They are useful, but can be brittle!

Don

[AlexandersChiefEunuch]

Thanks guys, interesting set of responses. I think the consensus seems to be that CS can be useful, but need careful handling. That makes me think there's a real danger of the tail wagging the dog. By that I mean that commanded shot is supposed to protect vulnerable mounted, but great care is needed with the mounted not to leave the soft, squishy and non-resilient CS up the creek without a paddle. From the word go you're compromised because, as people have said, you need to restrict the movement of your mobile arm so as not to leave their protection behind. I could see myself very easily either developing a plan with a view to protecting my CS (rather than assailing the enemy) or being forced into such a plan by events. Either way that's counter productive. I think commanded shot are a 'rapier' for the more skilled player, rather than the blunt instrument for the more skill-challenged players such as myself.

As for hiding your isolated commanded shot in terrain, be wary if they're Swedish salvo troops as if they are in terrain where you only get to shoot with the front rank then, unless I've misunderstood the rules, salvo don't get to shoot at all !

In the Later 30YW German list I've written I have room for just the one CS BG (which prompted me to start this thread ion the first place), but it might have a role on one flank looking after the cr*p single BG of reiters I have to take and contending with the dragoons to be the first to die (well, that's what seems to happen to my dragoons ).

Tim - Is that what Phillip and Fernando would say on the subject, because of course their view carries great persuasive weight ?

Martyn

[madaxeman]

.... From the word go you're compromised .... I could see myself very easily either developing a plan with a view to protecting my CS (rather than assailing the enemy) or being forced into such a plan by events.

CS and carbine horse are not the formation to choose if you want to assail the enemy.

If you put them in a position whereby the enemy are forced to (or tempted to...) assail them however....

[AlexandersChiefEunuch]

CS and carbine horse are not the formation to choose if you want to assail the enemy.

Agreed.

When I was talking about assailing the enemy, though, my mind had wandered back to the list I was writing which prompted me to start the thread. In the list as written I had 4 x Kurassiere BGs and 1 commanded shot and was wondering whether I should try and include more commanded shot. So my comments about the tail wagging the dog were in the context of MF CS trying to keep up with superior heavily armoured impact and melee pistol horse. The CS would be an unnecessary drag on the speed and manouevrability of the horse, when the horse are hard enough to look after themselves and want to be looking to hand out a sound beating to the opposition. All of which means, I think I've got the answer to my original question... or at least AN answer which seems to make sense to me.