Protected Spearmen

[ravenflight]

Hi All,

I'm just wanting to clarify what I already think is true.

In days gone past I found Protected Spear went downhill VERY fast once disrupted. They keep spear + but the enemy also get the sword + and armour + (assuming Armoured Sword legionaries).

Things don't appear to have changed. The Legion will still get + for sword, and as that brings everything up to even they will get the + for armour as well, correct?

Is there any saviour in V2 for the Protected Spear or are they still a dogs breakfast?

I suppose one GOOD thing is that the single rank (after a death) spear wont be --, they'll be the same as the rest of the formation.

[Vespasian28]

Is there any saviour in V2 for the Protected Spear or are they still a dogs breakfast?

In the scenario you are offering it's still the dogs breakfast as far as I can see.

The only difference is that armour doesn't give you a ++ for a single armour differential. So, once your spears become fragmented the Romans are still on a +, not a ++ but I think you're past caring then. The only chance is to stay steady then it's down to the dice, pretty much like V1.

[gozerius]

Protected spearmen are supposed to be the dog's breakfast, representing the mass of most armies that supported the elite of the army. They are there to provide bulk and hold up the enemy long enough for their betters to win the victory.

[ravenflight]

Protected spearmen are supposed to be the dog's breakfast, representing the mass of most armies that supported the elite of the army. They are there to provide bulk and hold up the enemy long enough for their betters to win the victory.

Yes, that's exactly what Protected Spearmen in the Viking and Hoplite lists are supposed to do

Actually, I find it interesting that people actually design min-maxed lists for these two armies just so that they have 'betters' - for example "Hoplite Armies" with a minimum of Hoplites and a maximum of mounted and 'terrain' troops, or taking the minimum number of Bondi and maxing the Huscarles or if you're like me going 'stuff this, it's just impossible, I'll build Post Viking Medieval Scandinavians instead as at least they get knights. It seems so far as FoG is concerned I'll not be running Vikings ever again.

[philqw78]

It does seem odd that Viking is a far worse army than Anglo Dane when the Vikings took most of the North East of England, which, lets face it, still hasn't recovered.

But like in all wargames rules one dimensional armies suffer or thrive. Those that can mini-max have a get out from their worst bits.

[ravenflight]

It does seem odd that Viking is a far worse army than Anglo Dane when the Vikings took most of the North East of England, which, lets face it, still hasn't recovered.

But like in all wargames rules one dimensional armies suffer or thrive. Those that can mini-max have a get out from their worst bits.

Agreed. I think I'm still suffering a little from the derogatory comments made by people about 'min-maxing' etc, when you have to get an army to work... and that might require min-maxing.

[Vespasian28]

I too have been wondering about the Vikings. Under the current austerity climate I have been forbidden to have any new armies but am allowed to upgrade existing ones. So the Normans, Anglo Danes and Vikings that have been lurking in boxes unused since the late 80's and 6th Edition are getting a makeover.

But how do the Vikings of old put up a fight in FOG against the armoured masses of Anglo Danes? Plus the latter get more Light troops as the Viking archers are mostly stuck ineffectively in with the Bondi.

Any hints most welcome as they are due to take on the Anglo Danes early next year.

[ravenflight]

I too have been wondering about the Vikings. Under the current austerity climate I have been forbidden to have any new armies but am allowed to upgrade existing ones. So the Normans, Anglo Danes and Vikings that have been lurking in boxes unused since the late 80's and 6th Edition are getting a makeover.

But how do the Vikings of old put up a fight in FOG against the armoured masses of Anglo Danes? Plus the latter get more Light troops as the Viking archers are mostly stuck ineffectively in with the Bondi.

Any hints most welcome as they are due to take on the Anglo Danes early next year.

Historically (as in my history using them) they are tough as nails, but nearly impossible to win with.

That's the trouble, they just sit there. MAYBE in the new rules they will sit there less, but in the past people could take out 70% of your points by just deciding not to fight it, and pick off some easy meat getting an 8:12 victory. Sometimes you might be able to pick up a few points here and there, so I tended to be 'middle of the pack'.

I'm rated in the top third, so it's not that I'm useless. I'm not FANTASTIC but I'm not a dog either, but the army just has no real power to win.

Post Viking Medieval Scandinavians is quite a good 'vikingesque' option... and I'll revisit the Armoured knights too. That army is one of the few that can have both armoured AND heavily armoured knights, so is quite good at adaptability (and you'll just be expanding, so are allowed to buy the lead - right?)

[philqw78]

Armies like Viking, and there are many of them, will always suffer due to their comnparative lack of manoeuverability. They just cannot capitalise quickly on a local success, or get away from a minor failure before it becomes a major failure.

Thankfully V2 should have also increased troop density which will help a lot, but not enough.

[ravenflight]

Armies like Viking, and there are many of them, will always suffer due to their comnparative lack of manoeuverability. They just cannot capitalise quickly on a local success, or get away from a minor failure before it becomes a major failure.

Thankfully V2 should have also increased troop density which will help a lot, but not enough.

Yes, you're right. I guess my reason for bringing up the Viking list is that Gozerius was saying that Protected Spearmen are supposed to be a dogs breakfast just holding up the enemy enough so that the rest of the army can get stuck in... well, with Viking the 'rest of the army' is 18 elements of Armoured Spearmen (not much better) or Armoured Heavy Weapon (not much better) and some skirmishers (definitely not much better).

As I've said before, they can be fairly tough to beat, but almost impossible to win (20+ points) with. I have had wins with the Vikings (probably even gotten a 25 at some stage), but many more wins with other armies. Given that I'm still the same person, I imagine it has a LOT more to do with the army than with the player, although I will also acknowledge that sometimes the way an army plays is more suited to different personalities - but not THAT much.

[dave_r]

How many battles did the vikings actually win? They terrorised Monks and women and children, but I seem to remember they got a real kicking when an actual army turned up.

[madaxeman]

How many battles did the vikings actually win? They terrorised Monks and women and children, but I seem to remember they got a real kicking when an actual army turned up.

Yeah, but wasn't that also down to superior logistics and the way the state was organised blah blah blah (begins to repeat generic roman argument ad nauseum blah blah )...

[grahambriggs]

Protected spear should be a bit better. You can afford them 3 deep so they won't take the -1 for hits per two bases that often. So more chance of their morale holding long enough to bolster them.

[dave_r]

How many battles did the vikings actually win? They terrorised Monks and women and children, but I seem to remember they got a real kicking when an actual army turned up.

Yeah, but wasn't that also down to superior logistics and the way the state was organised blah blah blah (begins to repeat generic roman argument ad nauseum blah blah )...

No it was nothing to do with Logistics - the main battles in period:

Ashdown (871) - Danes v Saxons. Dane's got mullered, only one commander surviving.
Brunanburh (937) - Scots and Vikings v Saxons. Saxons again mullered the Scots and Vikings. Five viking kings were killed.
Maldon (991) - Vikings v Saxons. VIkings did win this one - the Saxons failed their morale test when their king was killed.
Gate Fulford (1066) - Saxons v Vikings. Saxons slaughter yet more Vikings.
Stamford Bridge (1066) - Saxons v Vikings. Of the 240 - 500 ships needed to bring the Vikings to england, only 20-24 were needed to return the survivors. Apparently in 1130 the piles of bones were still evident.

Seems to me that the Saxons were miles better than the Danes and Vikings.

[Vespasian28]

Seems to me that the Saxons were miles better than the Danes and Vikings.

Well. FOG seems to have that right then.
Thanks for all the advice. I am now fully confident that the Vikings will join all my other armies in the hopeless causes selection to be trundled out for the amusement of my opponents

[philqw78]

And yet the Saxons were forced to pay the Danes/Vikings over 70 tons of silver to stop them terrorising the monks between 990 and 1016, after which England was ruled by Danes until the Norman conquest.

[dave_r]

And yet the Saxons were forced to pay the Danes/Vikings over 70 tons of silver to stop them terrorising the monks between 990 and 1016, after which England was ruled by Danes until the Norman conquest.

It's cheaper than having to build your own navy and troops to man it

I'm not sure Edward was a Dane? I'm fairly certain Harold wasn't either, although obviously there was some intrigue. Alfred game them some good shoe'ings when he managed to get them to stay long enough to actually fight.

I think the moral of the story here is that protected spearmen should be better than they are against armoured heavy weapon. In FoG it's an even fight until the spearmen disrupt in which case it's certain obliteration.

[philqw78]

I think the moral of the story here is that protected spearmen should be better than they are against armoured heavy weapon. In FoG it's an even fight until the spearmen disrupt in which case it's certain obliteration.

Have you been at the XMas wine gums Dave?
Protected O/S are minus in the above. Disruption loses them dice, and now fragmentation makes no difference to POA. So they can lose for a bit longer.

[dave_r]

I think the moral of the story here is that protected spearmen should be better than they are against armoured heavy weapon. In FoG it's an even fight until the spearmen disrupt in which case it's certain obliteration.

Have you been at the XMas wine gums Dave?

Not yet

Protected O/S are minus in the above. Disruption loses them dice, and now fragmentation makes no difference to POA. So they can lose for a bit longer.

Exactly. Try recreating a Saxon spear wall against the Vikings and see if you can replicate any of the battles I mentioned above (with the obvious exception of the one the Danes actually won)

[Vespasian28]

I am "pleased" to report that following their first outing the Vikings can confirm that up against the Anglo Danes they are indeed the historical dogs breakfast FOG intends them to be.
800 points in a limited time match this evening so no fancy manoeuvering(!) and the Vikings did manage to get themselves back into shape when pulled out of it by the skirmishing Saxons (3 LF BG to 1 is a pain).
Impact all along the line saw one unit of bondi disrupt but two fyrd go the same way.
By the end of melee the armour told and we had three disrupted and one fragmented Viking units for no loss to the Anglo Danes. Even the disrupted fyrd with fewer dice beat their opponents.

So pretty much as predicted. At 800 points there is no soft underbelly of Poor Fyrd and the one extra Bondi unit you get from your opponents being all armoured can easily be distracted by LF.
Maybe my error was to intersperse bondi with huscarls instead of having the latter in one block but as I suggested earlier I cannot see a way to win except having good die and your opponent doesn't.
Back to the drawing board.