Effects of mines

[afk_nero]

Just a quick question - is there any benefit in capturing mines. I know that in WW2 it was important for germany to secure there iron ore production.
I also see that in the game stats it shows how many ports and mines you have captured. Do these stats mean anything besides the obvious production points?

[borsook79]

Just a quick question - is there any benefit in capturing mines. I know that in WW2 it was important for germany to secure there iron ore production.
I also see that in the game stats it shows how many ports and mines you have captured. Do these stats mean anything besides the obvious production points?

I don't think so. They're just another source of PP, only oil fields have a different usage.

[arras]

I know that in WW2 it was important for germany to secure there iron ore production.

That actually is not true. Germany was producing more steal than USSR for example even before war started. They were short of some more rare metals so at the end of war quality of steel they produced deteriorated and they had to stop producing some ammunition types like antitank rounds containing tungsten core but they did not have lack of iron ore. They also did not luck oil as is often thought. They were producing synthetic one from coal. Luck of fuel in later years was more due to disturption of traffic, production and general disorganization then luck of raw material. This of course does not mean they did have abundance of it.
In general Germans failed to organize they war effort well which was result of luck of long time planing and resource management. Germany went in what they thought is going to be short quick conflict, just like Japanese did.

May be the worts shortage which they experienced was shortage of manpower (including experienced workers), which is represented in game quit well.

[borsook79]

I know that in WW2 it was important for germany to secure there iron ore production.

They also did not luck oil as is often thought. They were producing synthetic one from coal.

Well, they did feel the lack of oil. Synthetic one from the early 1940s was incomparable to the modern one, the cost of producing it was tremendous, it did not work as well as it should, e.g. at times it was almost impossible to start engines using it, German needs were also greater than industry's ability to synthesize oil. So while you're definitely partially right I would not dismiss the seriousness of Germany's oil problems.

[arras]

This might be true but one has to take in mind that German army was not too much motorized. Most of its infantry divisions were relying on horse transport and their foots (infantry division could travel some 25-60 km per day by simply marching on foot). Only handful of panzer and panzer grenadier divisions were motorized. I did not read nor hear anything about lack of fuel until later stages of war ...1944-45 and you should not forget that only oil source through war was that at Romania. They newer conquered Caucasus.
And then lot of cases when tanks had to be abandoned due to lack of fuel was because it did not simply get to them due to Allied air superiority. Some sort of thing Russians suffered during beginning of war.

In Commander my panzers (5 + 5 motorized infantry) stop dead dry already in 1941-42 just short of Moscow and oil supply I get is enough to operate one-two panzers plus two-three air nothing else (including subs and naval). While this results in Axis failing to reach Moscow it is bit unrealistic and should be rebalanced I think. Without capturing Caucasus Germany is not able to play even stalemate in the East.

In general ...and contrary to general belief it was not luck of raw resources which hampered Axis in war (including Japan) but simply limited production ability. This include luck of skilled workforce, modern tools and organization. Japan for example managed to conquer wast resource areas, one of the richest in the world at that time but failed to process and transport them, largely because it was not in its economic ability. Germany was also very slow in switching to war economy for example for reasons I already described. Their economies simply did not have base wide enough to be quickly expanded as was case of USA. Axis did encounter luck of some materials (as I also already described) but such problems did encounter all combatants in war except USA. In USSR lack of rubber forced famous T-34 to be produced without rubber wheels in early-mid war resulting in worsened driving characteristics along with increase in noise. Luck of light alloys forced them to produce planes partly made of wood ...all early-middle war fighters were partly made of plywood. Prewar fighters were all steel.

This all sad, I don't want to say that they had abundance of resources but that resources itself did not had as dramatic influence on war as is generally believed. Rather there were more economic and organization reasons.

[borsook79]

In Commander my panzers (5 + 5 motorized infantry) stop dead dry already in 1941-42 just short of Moscow and oil supply I get is enough to operate one-two panzers plus two-three air nothing else (including subs and naval). While this results in Axis failing to reach Moscow it is bit unrealistic and should be rebalanced I think. Without capturing Caucasus Germany is not able to play even stalemate in the East.

That very well may be, but game balance is another issue, btw think it's perfectly possible to keep oil reserves beyond 1942 in the game as Germany.

In general ...and contrary to general belief it was not luck of raw resources which hampered Axis in war (including Japan) but simply limited production ability.

That's right but one should bear in mind the cost of developing the technology and actually producing millions of tons of synthesized oil. Should Germany have access to a better oil source I.G. Farben factories, scientists etc working on synthesized oil could have been put to a better use. I cannot judge how big influence on war effort that could have, but indeed the problem was there.

[arras]

btw think it's perfectly possible to keep oil reserves beyond 1942 in the game as Germany.

Howe? ...I did play game twice as Germans with second time be aware of oil problem so I tried to save but result was as I sad: Panzers with empty fuel tanks just sort of Moscow Only second time I leaded one trust to Caucasus so captured oil there earlier.

That's right but one should bear in mind the cost of developing the technology and actually producing millions of tons of synthesized oil. Should Germany have access to a better oil source I.G. Farben factories, scientists etc working on synthesized oil could have been put to a better use.

Yes for sure they could, but then they also could not waste resources on expensive V1, strategic bombers with dive bomber ability or battleships and carriers which newer saw combat, or even did not manage to be really finished. They could not waste power developing and producing super heavy tanks which were so heavy they broke suspension and gear each few kilometers. Germany surly did fail to manage its resources well.
Look at Russia, with economy slightly weaker (maximum equal) than that of Germany, less modern, manpower only twice as big (and reduced heavily during early stages of war with millions of dead and captured young men), inferior infrastructure, general shortages of food and half their European territory occupied in few weeks (where half their industry resided) managed to overproduce Germany in every single aspect that mattered.
Why is that? ...they did manage their economy more effectively. True, Germans produced superior tanks, but at a cost of such complexity that 8 Russian tanks could be produced in place of one German and 4 times more people have to serve them (including servicemen not just crew).

Germany did not manage their economy well (Japan is bit different story).

USA is of course different animal and cant be compared to any other combatant. Just prior war their economy was sleeping after great depression, entered war relatively late and waged it from safe distance.
Just two notable examples are development of A bomb and B-24 bomber. Each of these projects consumed resources so large, any other combatant could ever dream of during war. And by resources I don't mean oil or ore, rather large numbers of skilled scientists, technicians, labs, workshops, special equipment and mountains of money.

Thats why I say, it was not lack of resources which hampered Axis. It did hamper to some limited extend, but not decisive extend as is thought.

Btw: Don't forget that it was USA bankers and corporations (lot of them Juish) which have helped build up German economy from bottom of WWI, reparations and world economic depression and continued to support it well in to war (even after USA declared war on Germans in some cases). IG Farben and synthetic fuel project is good example of this.

[borsook79]

btw think it's perfectly possible to keep oil reserves beyond 1942 in the game as Germany.

Howe? ...I did play game twice as Germans with second time be aware of oil problem so I tried to save but result was as I sad: Panzers with empty fuel tanks just sort of Moscow Only second time I leaded one trust to Caucasus so captured oil there earlier.

If you're playing against the AI an early thrust through Africa will eliminate the oil problem. In mutliplay this may be more difficult. Anyway this may not sound like terrible fun but you just have to mind the oil from turn one, never move motorized units outside combat in any other way than railroads, do not use them at all in smaller campaigns (Yugoslavia etc) this should give you enough oil until late 1943. And if you don't conquer any oil fields by that time chances are you're going to lose anyway...

[shawkhan]

U-boats and surface ships take one oil to move, airplanes cost three or more. Teched-up tanks take four or more to move. Build U-boats to fight D-Day invasion and keep Murmansk convoys from USSR, build the minimum number of tanks. Motorized divisions only take one oil to use, build lots of them instead of expensive tanks. Use technology to equip motorized divisions so that they can combat Russian armor effectively.
I too run out of oil some time in 1943. If further oilfields have not been captured by the end of 1943 it is time to start a new game as you have lost. Isn't it nice to play a game where the AI can win?
Btw, I have watched the AI play as the Axis and it cheats even with the oil option on. I don't think the AI ever runs out of oil.

[borsook79]

Isn't it nice to play a game where the AI can win?

Unfortunately AI can't win. AI is unable to put enough emphasis on Africa, and hence even unaided Italian army can achieve a quick victory there, conquer Persia and that's the end of oil problems...

[shawkhan]

In my first game I played until the Russians took Berlin. I considered THAT a definite win for the AI.
The North African campaign is a major problem in the game. I wonder if it is possible to simply set Cairo and Suez/Alexandria as English cities to allow production there. Of course it is ahistorical, but since Australia and New Zealand aren't on the map(yet), it may represent Commonwealth troops arriving by way of the Eastern route. Just a thought on something that might be easily done with the game editor.

[arras]

I did tried your suggestions and it worked pretty well. Point is to move armor, mech. infantry and air as much as possible by rail. I have found out I can save a lot of fuel like that so now it lasts well in to 43 even with my 5 tanks roaming deep in Russia. I even did not have to stop my u-boat offensive in Atlantic.

Bye the way, don't you think that naval units, especially carriers and heavy surface consume too few fuel? Especially if you compare it to ground units and air? As I understand naval units represents whole task groups of several ships (Carrier and its escorts for example) ...they should consume tons of fuel. One point is too few...

As for AI I did not found it too creative. It seems that it is scripted on strategic level since in my 4 games it behaved exactly the same. Build same units, attack on same place at the same time. Its pity since like this game is not very replayable, once you found out good strategy you can use it again and again wit garranted success.

I know AI is newer going to be like human. I do program myself a little bit so I know limitations but it is possible to randomize some stats to some extend to make it less predictable and human like. I don't know hove this particular AI works but for example in general it would be possible to let AI randomly choose areas in to which invest more and in which less. Like setting percentage of its forces to prefer once air units other time naval (in some logic limits). Once focusing on Mediterranean and other time Atlantic.

On tactical level it is pretty good (for AI) but on strategic level it is quit medicore ...but not bad.
...just my opinion.

[borsook79]

Bye the way, don't you think that naval units, especially carriers and heavy surface consume too few fuel? Especially if you compare it to ground units and air? As I understand naval units represents whole task groups of several ships (Carrier and its escorts for example) ...they should consume tons of fuel. One point is too few...

Perhaps. Trouble is it is a very simplified model, ships in CEAW can for example remain indefinetly at sea, oil is only part of the problem. But the current model is quite playable and current oil costs are good for balance IMO.

As for AI I did not found it too creative.

Yes, unfortunately if you want challenge you have to go multiplayer. CEAW's AI is decent but slightly below the competition's standard. That said the next patch may bring some improvement though I would not expect too much.

[arras]

Yes I did notice they are totally independent of naval bases. There would be some workaround possible I think if supply rules similar to ground units apply also to naval units ...that is farther from nearest friendly base ship is, less supply status it gets, sort of ...which would influence its performance in combat. Just suggestion.