Question from yesterday game

Lionelc62 · Post by **Lionelc62** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:53 am

We had a strange situation yesterday in our game (Dominate romans / Seleucides).
2 Romans BG and a Galate BG face to face :

BB
BBR
__R
__R
__R

_XX
_XX
_XX
_XX

B = BG of 4 Romans Bowmen
R = BG of Roman legionaries in column
X = BG of 8 Galates in 2 files of 4

The galates charged the Romans and stepped forward to contact the bowmen

BB
BBR
_XR
_XR
_XR
_XX
__X
__X
__X

In this situation, is it possible for the galates to expand to gain an overlap against the legionaries (If the 4th rank expand, the contact between the 2 files is broken) ?

Several possibilities :
A / The galates cannot change at all their formation because they cannot break the contact between their 2 files.. In this case what happens if they lose 2 stands ?
B / They can expand and temporarily lose the contact between the different parts of the BG
C / They can expand on the right against the legionaries and lose the contact with the bowmen to stay in formation.

We chose A / and my Galates were destroyed, as was the rest of my seleucids army

.

Lionel

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:08 pm

Interesting.

The problem looks to lie in the keeping ranks even rule rather than the expanding one. When I first read this I though just move the back two bases of column facing the legionaries to an overlap but if you follow the allowed formations rule then you would not be able to do this.....

I would say if I was umpiring that you move to:

Code: Select all

BB
BBR
 GR
 GR
 GR
 GGG
  GG

Pikeaddict · Post by **Pikeaddict** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:24 pm

High,

I was the ugly roman in front...
Your proposal was also proposed by Lionel, but in this case, the formation is illegal as only the last rank is allowed to be incomplete !?

Jerome

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:29 pm

I realise that the formation is not legal because of uneven ranks but it is also illegal as the front rank isn't straight.

stevoid · Post by **stevoid** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:17 pm

This is indeed an interesting question. Reading page 7 - BG Formations, it would appear that actually stepping forward itself is not one of the four allowed exceptions to the rectangular formation restriction but then I realised that stepping forward is considered compulsory.

Given that you have already (compulsorily) left the required formation, I would suggest that you are allowed to feed-in (expand your troops in this case) as reforming on page 34 explicitly excepts feeding in as a proscribed voluntary move. So Hammy's proposal is correct and legal.

Cheers,

Steve

PS - you might want to edit your original question as I can't see why expanding against the legionaries would break contact between the files (which fits with Hammy's proposal).

edit: PPS - in no way should the BG be split up.

stevoid · Post by **stevoid** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:21 pm

To summarise quickly:

- You are allowed to be in an illegal formation because of a compulsory move.
- Normally you could not then make any voluntary moves until you reformed, however, feeding into combat is an exception.

Cheers,

Steve

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:22 pm

stevoid wrote:PS - you might want to edit your original question as I can't see why expanding against the legionaries would break contact between the files (which fits with Hammy's proposal).

The 'problem' is that if you follow the normal formation limitations then expanding a 2 wide 4 deep group should give you a group with two ranks of 3 and one of 2. That means that the deepest the formation can be anywhere is 3 ranks and as a 4th rank is required in the file fighting the bow then this would mean splitting the group.

It is an odd situation and a clarification / FAQ entry from the authors would be handy.

stevoid · Post by **stevoid** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:55 pm

hammy wrote:
stevoid wrote:PS - you might want to edit your original question as I can't see why expanding against the legionaries would break contact between the files (which fits with Hammy's proposal).
The 'problem' is that if you follow the normal formation limitations then expanding a 2 wide 4 deep group should give you a group with two ranks of 3 and one of 2. That means that the deepest the formation can be anywhere is 3 ranks and as a 4th rank is required in the file fighting the bow then this would mean splitting the group.

It is an odd situation and a clarification / FAQ entry from the authors would be handy.

Hammy, I think my summary stands as the expansion rules on page 21 don't apply to troops in combat but the feeding in rules do and the latter are an exception to the requirement to reform as I mentioned above.

Cheers,

Steve

Pikeaddict · Post by **Pikeaddict** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:56 am

stevoid wrote:To summarise quickly:

- You are allowed to be in an illegal formation because of a compulsory move.
- Normally you could not then make any voluntary moves until you reformed, however, feeding into combat is an exception.

Cheers,

Steve

I don't think you could extand in this case though as there are only four exceptions to the rectangular formation with only the rear rank allowed to have less bases (p7)

The compulsory move allows you to do the step forward move but not to feed more troops into melee !
I agree that feeding more troops into melee is an exception to voluntary move but it is not an exception to the general rule on Battle Group formation.

Jerome

stevoid · Post by **stevoid** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:21 am

Hi Jerome,

I guess we'll have to wait for the author's to give us their verdict, but I don't see why there would be the exception for feeding-in on page 34 if it was not for a situation like this and it would seem stranger still that the rules require you to step forward out of a legal formation to then stop you performing normal in-combat moves.

Cheers,

Steve

nicofig · Post by **nicofig** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:01 pm

I think it's the best solution. Richard ? Simon, Terry ?

Where are you ?

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:46 pm

Sorry I (we) haven't replied as yet - This requires a study of the rules before commenting, and I've been a bit busy -
You will get a response shortly.[/quote]

nicofig · Post by **nicofig** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:37 am

up for an answer

terrys · Post by **terrys** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:41 am

OK guys - my answer as follows:-
(If Richard or Simon disagree, I'm sure they'll add their opinion)

Points to note.
1) 'Normal' formation rules are suspended while in combat. You are only required to reform before making a 'normal move'
2) The 2 rear ranks of the stepped forward bases are elegible to fight the Romans as an overlep, and therefore cannot expand.

My ruling would be that the Galates can expand the rear 2 ranks of thier right hand file to overlap the Romans - Who cannot expand to meet then, because their own 2 rear ranks are already elegible to fight as an overlap.
So the ending situation is:

BB
BBR
_GR
_GR
_GR
_GGG
__GG

With 2 Galates fighting 4 bowmen
and 6 Galates fighting 4 Romans